Hello! I'm new to posting but could really use some good advice! My problem is rather complicated so please bear with me!

My questions is this.. which is the worse of two evils.. sending a horse to a "cruel" trainer, but who "knows" what he's doing, or starting him myself, even though I don't know much about starting horses, and don't have much more then 2 or 3 days a week to work with him!

To start, I live in Mexico, in a very small town! (this is the source of all my problems, but hey, we won't be going back to the states for at least another year! oh well!) My 3 1/2 year old “Azteca type” Cappy (short for Caporal), has had a very hard and traumatic first part of his life, and kind of fell in my lap and stayed there. I know that in ideal conditions, I wouldn't have a three year old stallion, but hey, my other option is to sell him to an unknown and most likely cruel fate. Gelding him will be the topic of an upcoming post!
Most trainers where I live resort to the true "breaking" of a horse. Metal crops, spurs with hooks, car chain bosals, I've seen it all. See horses with white patches or scars on them is not thought of twice here. They are also very sexist. I ask for advice and they normally tell me to find a man to train him for me! And the whole idea of the trainer training me to ride him or letting me watch is pretty much out of the question. It would threaten their manhood if I was to handle the horse was well as they do! They don't understand the whole button thing! Ok now that I have criticized the trainers , I know NOTHING except what I’ve read about starting horses!! And there is not really any one here I can trust to help guide me. I think I've been doing ok so far, I have been able to gain his trust and a good part of his respect, and he really doesn’t trust men, due to his past. I have taught him to lead, and lunge, albeit, far from perfect, and the first time I got on him (he lets me put the saddle on with no problem) he looked at me as if saying "What took you so long mom!" He came up from the pasture lame shortly after that so he's been on stall rest for about 5 months, but I think now he's ready to start again. He is truly a sweet heart. And I'm afraid of ruining him if I do this by myself. I know so much depends on the horse too, and there is so much more I could say about our particular situation, but I think I've made this too long already! So any general opinions! Advice! Where to start!? Please help! I will not be offended if you all just say I'm crazy and should sell him right away! I'm looking for honest help, something hard to come by in my town! Thank you so much!!

(please don't think that all of Mexico is the same. I just happen to live in a backward, sexist town, I do know people in other places (far from me!) that truly care for their horses and would never use cruelty as a means of training.)

Well, welcome to the forum! I have never started a horse but I am sure there are plenty of very knowledgable people on here who have that can give you advice. From what I read however, you are doing a great job on your own. The fact that you have his trust and respect after his horrible past is wonderful and that quite possibly could have been more than half the battle. I think that if you sent him to one of these sexist and abusive trainers, he would come back a ruined horse. He needs someone understanding and patient, not someone who will take a metal crop and spur to him at the drop of a hat. If you can, read up on starting horses in articles, on the internet, on this forum. It could be a great learning experience for both the horse and you. As long as you are confident and are willing to give it a try, I think you will do fine and will not ruin him. Good luck and keep us posted.

Logically - sell it. But being a big softy I couldn't either. You pretty much have made up your mind. What have you been reading? Take it slow and BECAREFUL!! Use a helmet. Keep us posted and see if you can post pics.

Oh thats a tough one!! Well I'd say if he is even just a little to much to handle GELD him!! Stallions are MUCH more difficult to start under saddle especialy by someone who has never started a horse before and can easily turn sour or nasty. I would try to work with a "trainer" but say "I am NOT using ANY type of nasty and unneed equipment." Do you board your horse or keep him at home ? Are there people who can give you tips when you work your horse?

I would spend a good deal of time lunging him with the saddle on to start. Making sure he is balanced at all gaits and can hold a canter for at least 5 strides in each direction. Use the trot to improve the canter by doing pleanty of trotting(but don't over do it). Start puting a headstall with a bit on him once he is comfortable with the whole lunging thing. After he is 'perfect' while lunging start some undersaddle work. This is the spot where you want the trainer there so you get all the basics. If you can have someone lunge you while you ride do that but if you plan to use a bridle the first time keep his halter on under it and attach the line to it. Use a halter or a very mild bit the first time. Work him mainly at a walk and a trot. He probably won't have the muscles or the balance needed to canter so only do that for a few strides each direction. Do pleanty of bending ect.

Welcome!

You sure are in a pickle! IMO, so long as the horse respects you and you feel safe working with him any amount of "messing up" you do will pale in comparison to the methods you just described. No way I would send a horse to someone like that. You'll have a very long uphill battle with a lot of bumps, but it will be worth it not to have an abused, scared horse! Just make sure you always go back to basics and keep his respect so things don't get dangerous as they can with young horses (especially stallions).

Good luck!

Thank you all so much for your advice! Saying (writing) things out loud helps alot. And your advice is very good. I think that you are right that the best thing is to geld him. Although I'm alittle afraid of having it done. It is rather cruel here, I know someone whose horse died after they gelded him. But I do have a trusted vet. I've been reading lots on the internet. I've read Pat Parelli, another book called...Western rider? By another well known trainer who I've forgotten his name! I watched some videos too.
I have him at home, and there is plenty of places to work him, that are inclosed. But no round pen, just fields. I will start with lunging him again, like you suggested. I don't really have anyone except my husband who can help me, but he is really supportive, he's the one whose been telling me I can do it! Would you suggest gelding him before we start working again? Or get him in great physical condition first? I will post pictures later. (I'm at work now). I don't have any pictures from when we first got him, but I do have some that show his progress, he is still not 100%. One probelm that I'm having recently is that he's starting to lose respect for my space. When we are walking, he tends to push his head into me, especially the when he is nervous, excited, or scared. He respects my voice (it seems) and when I tell him "whoa" and "no" he stops and listens to me, but only for a little bit. Any suggestions? I just use a normal halter and lead rope with him right now. Thank you all SO MUCH for your help! And if you don't mind I will be asking lots of questions as we time goes one!!

Try reading Clint Andersonson stuff too. Looking forward to pictures. I would geld him straight way, if he is healthy enough. This is a good thing you are doing.

I would have him gelded ASAP. The respect issue might be from his raging hormones but just be firm as needed but gentle as possible. Stick to your guns and disipline him when it is needed. If you can have your hubby even just hold the lunge line for the first time undersaddle I would do that.

This will cost a little money, but 2 words!! CLINTON ANDERSON!!! I am a trainer and I have quite a few of his videos, But I mostly do colt starting and Clinton has a video on just colt starting! It is AWESOME, as well as all his other videos are! But it is $169.99 Us dollars. It teaches you step by step, and what to do and WHEN to do it!

I have started SEVERAL stallions, and they do seem to learn faster, BUT I would NOT recommend breaking a stud your 1st time around!

Jenny

I think I would personally want him gelded asap. So as long as he is healthy I'd go ahead and have the best vet you can get and afford do it.

The other poster's suggestion of the video is probably a good one (I haven't personally watched it). If you want to try it you might search ebay, half.com, and amazon for used/cheaper copies.

As for the bumping you with his head if a firm consistant "no" is stopping him in his tracks that's pretty darn good! Consistancy is key (especially when he continues to try). Since he is persistant you might try arranging things so his head runs into a not so pleasant part of your body (elbows work great for this). This way you aren't being agressive or hitting the horse (those things have their places) he's just running into something that probably doesn't feel good and he's doing it on his own. That may give some more "umph" to your "no".

As the others have said read/watch as much as you can, and most importantly don't let anything get to the point where you don't feel safe handling him...it's not worth it at that point IMO.

Since you have your husbands support and help as well as your horse's trust I would say do it yourself. Take your time, read or watch Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, Buck Brannaman, etc ... Instill manners and obedience whether you geld or not. Repeat repeat repeat. Some of the sass may be from hormones but some is like a kid trying a parent on. Geld if you feel you have a competent vet to do the procedure now or do it after you return to the states if you are excessively worried about that. Not all Stallions are full of crap.. relatively speaking. I would NOT send any horse to any trainer whom I felt would abuse my horse. I would wait another year if that was my only choice.

You sound like you are quite capable to me.. Just use common sense. If it isn't something you are comfortable with, don't do it..

I'm just too lazy to go back and properly reply to the OP, plus I agree with everything AppyT said! If there is no competent vet you trust to geld your horse safely (normally here it is a fairly simple, safe procedure but you do need certain surgical standards), I'd wait as long as you are safe that way. That will involve more focus on respect, etc. in your training as well as certain considerations in keeping him contained away from mares, but it can be done. By 3 1/2 he probably already knows all about testosterone so gelding now vs. in a year will not make a ton of behavior difference as long as his handling is consistent. Of course if you have a good vet I would geld him sooner rather than later.

Sounds like you are a far better trainer than the other options available. Read, watch, stick around here and learn all you can! My impression is that you have decent common horse sense which is a good start! Consistency, fairness, respect. There is no rush to ride, you can keep up the ground work and have him trained in the states if you prefer, although it sounds like your fist time on him was a good indication that you'll do fine. Of course there will be bumps in the road but at least there will be no abuse!

I am overwhelmed by the amount of support and advice that I've gotten from you all! Thank you so much! It is really nice to hear all of your advice and be able to talk about my horse and our problems!!

After talking to my husband and reading all of your advice, I'm definitely going to start him myself. We are also going to definitely geld him! He is not breeding quality at all, he has some confirmation faults(or so the vet tells me!)and bloodline? (what's that! ) After talking to my vet, I feel much better about the whole thing. I guess two practices are still used here, the good one, and the old one. The old one in English literally translates to "rubber band". You can all imagine what that in tales. The other one includes a sedative, and a surgical procedure while the horses is standing. The vet tells me that it's about 10-12 days recovery, and little risk to the horse? Does this sound about right? We will probably have it done within the next month.
So far he seems to respond good to a stern NO, or ENOUGH, for a minute or two and then starts again when something distracts him. Mine you we are walking around in the street with cars and horses and donkeys and flying poster monsters! I will try the elbow thing, see how he likes that!
The books I've read are Ride Smart by Craig Cameron, Storey's Guide to Training Horses - Heather Smith Tomas, and for my own ridding - Cherry Hills 101 arena exercises. I will definitely look into Clinton Anderson, and the others you've all mentioned.
Here are some pictures of Cappy. I will take a picture of him today and post it as well so you can see how much he's changing! Please... don't get scared!! He is almost looking like a full blown horse nowadays! It has been very hard to get him up to weight and condition, as he is also growing, but we are almost there. Just so you have a little more history about him....
He was brought down from a herd in the hills last February. That was his fist contact with humans and it was 7 men and their horses (and me!) chasing him and his brother around, pinning them, roping them, and DRAGGING them down to the town. The rope was so tight around his throat that he was "screaming silently" like someone you see on TV getting strangled. He was different because instead of "fighting", he just laid down and gave up. They actually drug him a couple of meters on the ground. It was the most traumatic thing I've ever seen and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Once he was down, they left him with this rope on him (which by this time they had made into a bosal) and that was that! They never came back to do anything with him! So I would watch him everyday and try to get close to him but he would actually break through the fences to get away from anyone who got with in a few meters of him. I finally had enough and told my husband that we were going to try and do something! We got him into a small pen, and got close enough to get the rope off of him. I figured, if I could get close to him and get the rope off, without hurting him, he would see that being with me was good. So it was a dangerous stupid thing but my husband and I got the rope off - it had actually started to grow into his nose and the top of his head. That is the white marks that you see in the pictures on his head. Medical treatment was pretty much out of the question because he would not let us close enough a second time to treat him. I let him be for a while, but then my mare ran him into a barbwire fence (not good for horses I know!!) and he cut his ear almost all the way through. That is when I decided to keep him and started working on getting close enough to him so that I could actually take a look at it. That took FOREVER! But he finally let me halter him and groom him and walk him, be never close to the ear with out head buts. Needless to say, I'm a good shot with spray meds!
Anyway, the fist pictures are of him in August, I finally got him to come up to the house and go into a stall (a very open one as you can see) I cut his mane off so that it would grow back even and nice and you can see how skinny we was and some of his injuries (his back hock). The next pictures are of him in January, he looks much better from August, no more injuries, and he's filled out a little. But still pretty skinny. Like I said I will take some pictures of him today and post them so you can see the difference. He looks much better now! I promise!! Thank you all so much, I believe me! I will be hanging around here a lot more!!!

OK, so I couldn't figure out how to send more than one picture at a time!

If anyone could tell me how I could actually maybe put the pictures in the body of the post?? This is the last one - from January.