I'm always amazed by how many people don't know that those rowels will ROLL.  Hehehehe!  Makes a big difference, too.  Or to try moving their leg to give the horse a different sensation.  Nothing like dropping your stirrups the tapping really low to get a new response!

dannyboy11:

Also check out the problem solving link on Parrelli.com (very useful)

I love Parelli and would recomend it to any horse person. I works wonders with my horse. She is a left brain extrovert and will push me around usless I've played with her. Now she knows who's boss and is happy to play the 7 games and be my friend, but at first she needed to be told who's boss or someone was going to get hurt. She could explosive, like this horse, but now she's realxed. I have seen a big difference while using Parelli with two VERY different horse. I also love there web site. I think that Parelli is the nicest thing you could do with a horse and anyone that dissagrees with that needs experence the results.

You sound that you are on the right track, but Parelli will help loads!

Now I'm really stumped.  I have taken it veeery slow with the filly, really gained her trust and created in her a good work ethic.  She now tolerates the saddle well, I can mount easily and she stays relaxed.  When she shows anxiety I take a step back and we do something she does well.  I finally mounted and asked for a few steps, and she froze up completely.  I reassured her, she calmed, and I again asked for a step by off-tracking her.  The rodeo was on!  I pulled her up and let her settle.  She calmed and I tried again, same response.  There is no in chance to let her settle with one step.  I sat on her for several minutes, she was calm, I asked my husband to lead her, she took a few steps, bucked, pulled her up and I again calmed her.  I was looking for a good chance to stop, with a small step in progress.  Finally, I was able to have her led 5 steps, whoaed, much lip smacking, I dismounted.  She looked at me like "Yay! you are finally back and you won't believe what just happend to me! "

I'm really beginning to think that I haven't gotten the whole story about her previous training.  Her reactions were pure fear, not temper tantrums.  She reacted like a never ridden horse, that just had a saddle thrown on and rode.  Any suggestions?  I was thinking about ponying while mounted or riding it out (not my first choice, given her flipping).  I have ridden many a bucker and hundreds of green horses.  She fits into neither catagory.  She acts like a severly traumatized horse when mounted.  The owners are getting impatient for real progress.  I really don't blame them, I have had her since Dec 22nd.  Again, any suggestions?

In reponse to the Parelli training, I think it is a great program. It just doesn't work when you are training a horse for someone else.  What I teach the horse has to be directly transferable to the owner.  I have suggested to owners that they might enjoy the Parelli training to bond with their horse, some have tried but most don't.

ColtysHeart:

I'm really beginning to think that I haven't gotten the whole story about her previous training.  Her reactions were pure fear, not temper tantrums.  She reacted like a never ridden horse, that just had a saddle thrown on and rode.  Any suggestions?  I was thinking about ponying while mounted or riding it out (not my first choice, given her flipping).  I have ridden many a bucker and hundreds of green horses.  She fits into neither catagory.  She acts like a severly traumatized horse when mounted. 

I'm gonna go back to my second "Ah-HA! moment" post last month about what probably happened to this mare, Colty. I'm as certain as I can be that you indeed "haven't gotten the whole story about her previous training... she acts like a severly traumatized horse when mounted." I'm sure that's what happened to her at the so-called training demonstration she was forced into. And despite your efforts at gaining her trust she still hasn't forgotten what happened there and immediately afterward. It was a real train wreck and the owner-"trainer" is doing one of two things; hoping you can straighten out the mess he created or inserting you INTO it so he has a third party he can transfer blame for her condition to down the road.

There's no magic bullet to fix this mare or any other traumatized horse. As you know, horse training takes as long as it takes. The owner's impatience is what created the problem and I think you should feel confident about telling him so... in writing! That will CYA against subsequent claims it was your fault. I ALWAYS do a written preliminary evaluation on a new horse, a proposed training syllabus and provide 30, 60 & 90 day written training reports precisely for that reason. You might want to consider voluntarily suspending training on the mare and returning her with a written evaluation to avoid the owner saying HE pulled the horse out for any reason he can imagine. Or... offer to suspend your training fee and continue for another 30 days for board only as a professional courtesy. Both options serve to protect your professional reputation. Plus the latter gives you one more month to try to succeed with this mare minus financial pressure on the owner. If he balks or refuses that, his intent to transfer blame to you will become clear.

Now. As for actual training suggestions... from what you outline in your posts you are taking the right path but under pressure for results. And I'm sure you know not to transfer that pressure to the horse. Enough said about that already... And even though something else should go without saying, I'll say it anyhow. Longe the horse for about 15 minutes before you do anything with her. Take the freshness off. In fact, make her dead tired if you can. A tired horse is a more cooperative horse. That being done, try "cheeking" the mare the next time you mount. Using a strong bridle or (better yet) a nylon halter under it, grab a handful of cheek strap and double the horse to the near side as you mount and hold her head there. After you're mounted, transfer your left hand to the rein as close to the bit as you can, keeping the mare strongly doubled until she calms and mouths the bit. Watch her eye for the calm. Doubling not only takes her head away from bucking but it allows her to get a good look at you in the saddle and releases calming endorphins from pressure on the neck. It takes about 30 seconds for the endorphins to release and spread to the brain. When she calms, keep her doubled but give her some outside leg and walk a few steps in a tight left circle, stop, keep her doubled, dismount and give lots of praise. Lead her in a few S-turns to relax and then re-mount and repeat the process, gradually giving her more rein and less doubling in the left circle. Be prepared to take it all back (full doubling) if she starts to get on the muscle. It would be nice if you had the luxury of introducing the horse to doubling with gradual suppling stretches from the saddle before getting started. But for now you need absolute control over that head right from the start. Your longeline handler should just be your energency backup plan for that.

When you can walk left circles without the panic attacks, double her to the right and start the process all over again in that direction. Make sure you don't hesitate pulling her through to the off side fully doubled. She doesn't need any extra time to "think" about momentarily getting control of her head back. When she walks left and right circles, convert them to constant left and right S-turns; always pressure on the direct rein and be ready to double her when needed. I suspect it will be a long time before this mare can be ridden on a slack rein. But once she starts to understand that nothing terrible is going to happen with you on her back you should be able to make normal progress working up to straight line walk/trot.

I truly wish you a successful outcome with this mare. It sounds like you're the only friend she's got. ~FH

Okay, the ponying didn't really help so........back to the beginning again.  This time she is progressing better (the third times the charm?).  I think her main problem is any movement, noise coming from the saddle.  This is were we always get stuck, and inconsistent behaviour.  So all week it has just been round pen with the saddle (sturrups tied down, stirrups loose, stirrups tied over saddle, rubbing the saddle, half mounts, etc....).  long reining, basic round pen work, hips over, shoulder over, giving to bit, ...  She is so eager to try (big change from beginning) and walk, trot is consistent, lope only kick outs (no buck).  She gets lazy and wants to stop, yawns when cued (aggravated sign) but still responds correctly - so she is learning.  I see great hope and potential in her.  Her owners keep saying they are going to come by, but haven't.  I guess I'll keep moving forward and hope that she and I can work through her demons. 

WAHOO!  Finally some real success!  We had a nice ride yesterday (only bucked once and kicked out a couple of times).  I kept it short and sweet and we ended with her relaxed and going forward.  I think real progress has been made!  Anyway, anyone looking for a beautiful 4 yr old buckskin paint filly with some issues?  The owners have decided to sell.

Just thought some of you would like an update.

I think you and I have the same mare! Mine is a 5-year-old grey tobiano mare. We're a dude ranch, and I've owned her for two years. I believe (like FloridaHorseman mentioned) that she was groundworked to death, built up lots of trust, and had it shattered when they threw a saddle on and loped off. She bucks for no reason, whenever she pleases. She is sensitive, cheerful, beautiful, and a quick learner-- when she wants to be. The rest of the time she is moody, angry, resentful, and cold. For two years I've had her on the trails, and she's bucked all my good wranglers off with phenomenal rodeo-quality displays of sunfishing and twisting. So I trained her to pack, which she took to liks a fish to water. I put her up for sale, but no one is interested in a pack mare that you can't ride (and isn't a half-draft). Now, I hadn't ridden her much myself, because I don't like to get bucked off any more than anyone, and besides, I've got all this crew around wanting to prove their abilities. We're a natural horsemanship ranch, but these bucking displays would come on randomly, and were impossible to stop.

My solution: I brought her back onto the ranch when all the horses had gone for the winter on to pasture (separate her from the herd so I'm her lead mare). First, I taught her to ground drive. She had no one to depend on, and had to lead out front like a good girl, which built up her confidence. We took mile walks daily, either packed or driving, to just work her, though her ground manners are impeccable. Finally, I started riding her, and let her tell me when we were done. At first, most days, it was just saddle on, stand to be mounted, walk a few feet, then she'd get cranky and we'd stop, back up and be done. Two minutes or five minutes in the saddle, at a walk, just flexion, walk, back, stop, repeat. I did this five to seven days a week, for two months. Slowly we got a little longer times in the saddle, and have progressed to trotting, prelimary rollback and sidepass work. Now, suddenly, this week, she is tolerating anything I can do. We're riding out of the barn area with no problem, dragging tires, trotting and loping, and she's a new horse. Trusting, calm, and very responsive (like you say-- so leg sensitive!). After so long with what seemed like little to no progress, she's a new horse!

I realize that this isn't a permanent solution, nor is it a solution for a horse trainer who doesn't get to spend three months with a problem horse. This is the MOST PROBLEM HORSE I have EVER met, so I'm pretty proud of her accomplishment. But I will note that while she and I have an understanding, she has bucked my husband off the three times he's ridden her in the past three months. I have put a one-rein stop on her in this time, and I'm confident that if she tries again, the rider could pick up her nose and stop her with no problem.

I was going to send her to auction a month ago, and I didn't, and now I'm really happy I waited. I think I finally found the right owner for her-- she's obviously a one-rider horse, and not a dude horse-- and she's finally riding like a partner and not like a bronc. Also lucky for her, since if she didn't change I was taking her to the Miles City Bucking Horse Sale in May! Patience and persistance can pay off, and make a partner out of an outlaw. Thanks for sharing your story, and good luck with her!

Oh-- spurs-- we never use them unless we're doing advanced work (cattle cutting, reining work, or riding through really tough country). My own gelding hates them! If I use them, he slams on the brakes and cow kicks at them, one at a time!! He's a rescue, so I don't know where he got this unique habit, but he's such a good horse otherwise I just forgo wearing them. I NEVER use them on colts, because I think they're only for advanced communication (just like you don't put a spade bit in a hackamore horse's mouth). I see so many trainers in our area with their spurs buried in the sides of their 3-year-olds it's sickening. What is the horse learning except to be dead-sided? How will I ever ride that horse WITHOUT spurs?

I think you have already had a lot of thoughtful, helpful suggestions.  A few things I can add:  do her "bad days" coincide w/ her heat cyles at all?  My mare used to get very touchy around her cycles--as though she had cramps; ears back, tail swishing, stomping.  I put her on "Mare Magic" and that resolved that fluctuation.  I also had issues w/ her body-softness.  I had a highly-recommended massage therapist/chiropractor work on her.  That made a **huge** difference.  Just like us-- if they are in pain, they don't want to do things that hurt.  What I was originally interpreting as obstinance and pushiness was her trying to get away from things I was insisting on that physically were painful.  Two days later, I had a willing partner.  It was black and white obvious.  I had no question that it was money very well spent.

My mare is also sensitive. Not as in spooky, but she requires praise for her slightest try & needs to be able to trust the human handling her.  If I reward that try, she gives me more and more each time.  If she were with a trainer who just kept pushing, she would blow.  Her brain cannot handle that type of high-pressure situation.  Linda Tellington-Jones has some really interesting books regarding horse personalities/temperments.  Some previous posters have mentioned Parelli's "Horsenalities" and it is a bit like that, but not exactly.  She has some good massage techniques & trust building work.  Her techniques can be added to your knowledge toolbox -- and I have found they work really well for horses like mine.   

Regarding your spur question, I didn't use spurs on her until we had reached a higher level of riding where I needed to fine-tune lateral movements and wanted to be more precise in my cueing.  I use a ball spur or a flat-rowel.  I don't use it as my go-forward cue.  Best of luck!

 Hi,

I just thought I would make a suggestion from experience. My horse did well at the walk & trot, had been ridden for about 2-3 years more or less, but she WOULD NOT canter, I could kick to the end of the earth & nothing would happen, if I hit her with a crop or anything like that she would buck violently. Turns out she had arthritas in her hocks. Each horse handles things differently but my research tells me that being ridden to much to young & by a heavy ridder could have easily caused this. So you may want to have the vet do a lameness exam, I know you said that it didn't seem like a pain issue but we didn't see any evidence of a pain issue either untill I said "heck with it, have the vet out * see what he has to say", & lo & behold.

So theres my two cents, good luck 

Well, the mare finally went home.  She was having some really positive progress and turning out to be a nice horse.  I hope her owners will continue riding her and building on our progress.  I very STRONGLY advised against the use of spurs on her (owner wore them during their first ride "I always ride with spurs.").  I sorta wish that they would sell her to a capable owner that will understand her and build on her potential.

 Well that saga is over and now I look forward to starting with my summer horses.  It looks like it will be a very busy summer (1 to start, 2 to finish, and 2 to ride).

I completely agree with dannyboy11. I also would like to share with you that a friend of mine has a mare that she had horrible problems with. I'm not talking a little crowhopping either. The mare would buck my friend constantly. Finally after 4 months of  @#%$! on earth trying to train the mare and doing research to anyone who possibly remedy a bad situation she got ahold of the concept of the join-up method or resistance or however you want to call it plus she inadvertently found out that her horse was tripping everytime before a buck spree. With trimming resembleing the mustangs hoof and learning to work as one she is now 5yrs later having the time of her discovering each new thought of her horse and their a complete trust on the part of both of them. If it worked for myself and my friends horse it very may work on another.