So here we are. Lets start this by introducing ourselves. Telling why we are here and what we feel we can do to help. I'll start.

I am a student of Veterinary Technology here in good ol' Indiana. I have two horses, both Apps,and a pony of my own. My old lady, Butters, is a rescue, she was no longer in shape to show or breed so she was on her way out and I talked her previous owners into letting me take her instead of sending her to the kill barn. I also have recently aquired my little pony, Sugar, she is a severe case of neglect, but I have hopes for her, she is a sweet little girl. I have one daughter who is welll on her way to becoming a little horsewoman herself, she is 8 and shows Butters in 4-H, I may let her show my gelding Danny, he is very flashy and (for the most part) a very calm three year old. I also have a menagrie of other animals, yes most of them are rescues as well. I do not take it in unless it is sick, injured, homeless, etc... Then I find good, responsible homes for them. I am so looking forward to this, I can;t wait to get to know everyone. Like i said this is my first forum,so be gentle, lol. I am so excited to get the ball rolling. there are some anti-slaughter events coming up March4 &5 in DC, look under AMericans against horse slaughter. There is a lot of good information on a wikipedia site as well. Let's do it...

OK; this thread morphed from the one on Horse Slaughter - go to the last page of that thread to see what started it.  NH Horse Woman gave us some good ideas to start with to think about educating the public and potential and current horse owners to really take a look at what is happening in the good old US of A to horses, and to work toward trying to make a difference by promoting responsibility for horse ownership.  Yes it involves money, it involves time, no one thinks it's going to change overnight, but there have been changes over the years and the only way to make more changes is by getting people behind the goal.  It means finding and getting the people in positions of power and influence to legislate regulation of the money grabbing, throwaway mentality of the horse industries: racing, breeding, high end showing, etc., and to give teeth to legislation to remove horses from bad situations and reduce the population.

We need ideas, connections, like-minded horse owners and those who just love horses.  What is proposed is going to be bitterly disputed by people who can only say "But it's always been this way" or "Horses are just livestock".  I've worked in human services long enough to know how hard an entrenched mindset can be to overcome.

This is an open forum and I expect that this thread will attract some of that thinking.  I suggest that this is a place to look forward and it is not the place to debate ethics or morality with those whose minds are set.  The Horse Slaughter thread is that forum.  So for those of us who have an agenda for change, I would encourage that we don't get involved in those discussions but stay on topic.  Do Not Debate The Issue.  Been there, done that, and now we're moving to another phase - working the problem.

I have time and passion to devote to this challenge.  I am retired/disabled, currently with 2 horses, Casey, my cuddly monster OTTB gelding, who is one of the reasons I began this journey, and Tempest, my new TB mare, a "freebie" who came to me because of the drought crisis that has affected so many horse owners this year.  My first horse, bought when I was in my late forties from a lesson barn, taught me that all my preconceived ideas about the horse were so wrong and began to open my eyes to the reality and scope of human indifference, ignorance and cruelty on yet another level.  I have rescued and re-homed 8 horses.  I support reputable rescues.  I stay in contact with my legislators and state horse council.  I educate myself on the current issues facing the welfare of horses (and dogs and children, different venues).  I am not an extremist, but there are issues that are more black and white than others and for me this is one of them.

This thread by itself will not solve anything.  But I would hope we might get ideas how to join forces with others to work for something more enlightened than exporting horse meat from magical creatures who bring so many such joy and peace.

Horses are not disposable!

I have a strong feeling about the good that can come from people dedicated to a cause. This cause which as we have discussed is ULTIMATELY for the protection of the horse. No one can claim and justly defend that there isn't a problem. The problem being that with congress changing laws to prevent horse slaughter, now there are no options for the thousands of horses who otherwise would have found themselves in the killer pens. This surplus will mean that the butcher won't be looking for horse meat, which in turn means a large number of horses will not be sold at auction. As we know often times auctions are the place when one can no longer keep a horse for whatever reason, they are taken to auction and any price is settled on, as long as the horse changes ownership most times at that point there is a huge disconnection between owner and horse at that point. Keeping that disconnection in mind, when the horse doesn't sell there stands a remarkably high possibility that either the horse will become a victim of neglect, or he will be forced into work despite any lameness, and otherwise be resented and abused. It is my hope that with this sort of law that the horse will never have ended up in those kinds of hands in the first place.

Additionally through this fee schedule besides the yearly fees for owning a horse there will be large one time fee for breeding as long as a healthy viable foal is born and we'll discuss each part.

I live in the currently frozen state of New Hampshire. I have 2 horses and 1 mini. All of my horses were rescues of sorts. The oldest was an un-hand led unwanted 3 year old mustang/appaloosa cross. She had never had vaccinations, never had her feet done, she had never been handled. She had a halter on that looked as though she'd worn it since she was a foal. Now she will be 4 this summer, we are starting to ride, and I have found her to be the most willing friend. She is my first inspiration.

My second horse I bought from a lady who had rescued her. She was 14 months when I bought her and she had already had a rough life. After being weaned from her mother, her and another colt spent the next six months locked in a dark dank NEVER clean stall together. Last I heard the colt didn't make it. They are my next inspiration.

And last my little mini stallion, a beautiful specimen of a mini horse he is 18 and came from a neglected home. He is such an angel you would never guess stallion. Although I have considered breeding him I also drafted a questionnaire for people to fill out before I would think of breeding him. 17 questions about what the life of the foal would be, send me pictures of your horses now, your barn, and references from your vet. Ironically I have had no takers on breeding to Sparky, and that does not hurt my feelings. He is another reason.

As a farrier here in NH I have taken many trips down long roads talking to horse owners about the conditions of their horses. In other words I have found too many bad situations. One old man owned a pony and 7 minis and yet at 75 he lived off of food stamps. Do you suppose all 8 of them were well cared for? They hadn't seen a farrier in 2 years what does that tell you. I do this for all of them.

I recently learned about a TB from from my youth who after we sold him bounced around from home to home simply because they couldn't handle such a fiery horse, finally someone decided to euthanize him.That was perhaps the wisest thing for him as it was only a matter of time. However he was only 20 years old. When I learned of this it bothered me horribly for a number of reasons, mainly because he could have just as easily been passed on down to the knackers. I thank God that he met someone that recognized the path he was headed down and ended it before he wound up some place like that. So I also do this for my childhood best friend, Buddy.

I think we should begin with the first part. The actual registration fee, then we can talk about the breeding fee, then someone had mentioned about branding lame or broken down horses, I think we should talk about that idea, and then where the funds and how much we are really talking about where they should be directed, and the elite horse protectors, a group of people dedicated to the health and well being of every horse. And so on...

First is the registration fee. This fee would require every horse owner to pay in once a year an amount of $100 simply to own the horse. It could be paid directly at you town/city offices. Very similar to having to register dogs. The goal behind this is that for the people who cannot afford to pay this there stands a good chance they cannot afford to own a horse and should not have one. As we talked about briefly the fee amounts to approximately $8.34 per a month. The other part that having to register your horse would prevent the effects of just passing a horse from one owner to the next. You will not be allowed to purchase a horse unless he has been registered by the current owner, the buyer will want to ask the seller for the state registration papers when he asks for a bill of sale. All horse shows, vet clinics, vets in general, I think farriers also and symposiums, clinics, or events will request to see the horses registration papers.

Now what about the back yard horses that don't travel don't go anywhere, what if the owner says heck as long as I don't leave the property with this horse I'm not going to pay a yearly fee. This is my dilemma because the old man I mentioned didn't go anywhere with his horses. Had I not gone down there to work on other horses I never would have known there were 8 minis suffering as they were. How is this enforced? I know that vets have got to be more upstanding about what they find. I told you one particular clinic around here will turn a blind eye to abuse cases because of the threat that if word got out that they turned people over to authorities there might be a chance no one will call for their services, and God forbid they lose their almighty dollar. I think this is where the team of specialists comes in as well.

What are your ideas?

First identify governmental and professional organizations that will be involved, at this point leaving their natural inclination neutral:  the USDA, BLM, all forms of legislative bodies, the AVMA, Jockey Club (actually all breed registeries), Federal Gaming Commission, all state vet assoc, state horse councils, the state and local equivalents of any federal orgs., ASPCA and HSA... add on please

Groups that might be inclined toward: 4-H, Pony Club, wow this one's tough,  Help!

Venues to get the message out and enlist others:  local shows right on up to the Bigs, rodeos, race tracks, the media...

People to enlist:  the Celebrity Factor (again local to national, preferably horse people), people in the horse business who believe, start again with local kids groups for education, get their parents involved.

Have immediate and long term goals, for immediate and long term success, e.g. immediately draw up a mission statement, start talking to friends and fellow horsemen; long term begin to form a strategy to reach the people who make decisions in numbers that will make them listen.

Avoid extremism and extremists, this must be passionate, sometimes argumentative and in-your-face, but never threatening.  Civil disobedience for the common good is every Americans' right, but there is a fine line that cannot be crossed.  I mention PETA as an extremist organization that has a good heart but has used distasteful, dangerous, stupid tactics that have backfired so it is no longer credible as a force for change.

Anyone else?  I need to go feed the horses! LOL

 

Good morning,  there is already a bill in action to completely ban ALL slaughter, this includes transporting our US horses to Canada or Mexico. HR503 is House energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Comerce, Trade and Consumer Protection Referral, House Agricultural Referral, Subcommittee on Livestock, Dairy, and Poultry. The horses that are being consumed are not fit for human consumption due to the fact that they are full of non palatible chemicals such as vaccinations and dewormers. Another one is through the Senate (S311) It is currently on hold. In order to become law, The American Horse Slaighter Act has to pass a FULL vote in both the House (HR503) and the Senate (S311).

 

HR503 is stuck in committee and not eligible for a Full vote until debated and released from the committee

S311 is up to the Senate, and once passed can go to the House in place of HR503 they are identical in language. Once one of these bills get past the Senate and House they will go to the President to become law.

 

This is the major problem, the paper work that is involved with a change. Contact your local Govt' offices to let them know how you feel about these bills, and send the information on to your friends, to anyone who would take the time to make the call. What i have done here in Indiana is look up names and numbers, found E-mail addresses and dates for the times when these bills have been up for vote. Make flyers and had them out to EVERYONE. Even if only one person calls there's one more voice being heard.

If the bill could be passed to make it illegal to TRANSPORT horses for slaughter, that would help a lot. 

I'm going to go back to the branding thing -- I really wish that all of the American registries (AQHA, APHA, whatever) would go through the inspection process like the European warmblood registries do.  If your horse does pass, it gets it's approval brand.  If not, it remains unbranded or gets a different brand and either way, it cannot be bred.  Colts gelded and mares possibly spayed to remove the temptation.  We all know what a HUGE number of registered QH and Paints end up on the killer trailer, it's become the case that an AQHA registration is pretty much meaningless to me.

OK, that's a good place to start - working on the transportation bill.  Let's find out the Senators and Congressmen who are against it or on the fence, and figure how to work the public in those states.  It doesn't do a lick of good for me to write my congressman if he's already behind the bill, other than to further encourage him.  It is the frustrating fact that it is people in states with hostile legislators who have to convince them that their re-election is in jeopardy depending on their vote.

There also needs to be the start of your plan, Solaris, to work toward reducing the population by restricting breeding.  Maybe you could write a clear draft of how it would work, including incentives, fines, fees and taxes, in addition to who would be responsible for oversight.  We're brainstorming here, so create your own agencies, etc, to get 'er done and we'll dive in after.  We're creating a perfect ideal from which to move into the real world.

Another major hurdle would be to remove the designation of horses as livestock and place them in the legal category of companion and work animals.

And a group I forgot, Duh!, would be to identify and enlist reputable horse adoption/rescue/retirement organizations, and put them under legal oversight to ensure that their stated mission is being followed.

*If the bill could be passed to make it illegal to TRANSPORT horses for slaughter, that would help a lot.*

 How would this be enforced?  If all of the U.S. slaughter houses are closed, how is this going to prevent horses from being exported to Canada or Mexico?  Do you really think that if a killer buyer pulls up to the boarder with a load of horses is going to be turned away if his paperwork is in order?  Even if the buyer is asked, "Are these horses going to slaughter?"  All the buyer has to say is, "No they are going to a sale in such and such a town" or "I bought them for rancher so and so at where ever he lives."  The horses then go through the sale and then to the Mexican or Canadian slaughter houses or to the ranchers place where ownership is transfered and from there to slaughter, so how do you prevent that? 

The only way I see to prevent U. S. horses going to slaughter is to ban the export of American horses for any reason.  That is someone from another country couldn't buy an American horse and remove it from the country, American breeders couldn't ship their mares to be bred to a stallion in another country that doesn't do shipped semen, stallions couldn't be exported to improve the gene pool of its breed in other countries,  folks who show outside of the country, including the USET, would no longer be able to do so, U.S. race horses wouldn't be able to compete in overseas races, horses that are brought here for breeding, showing or racing would then fall under this no exports ban, all so that we can make sure there is absolutely no horse in the U.S. goes to slaughter.  So is this really going to be the answer?  Will this help or hurt the horse industry in the U.S.? 

I know it sounds lovely to say lets collect $100 per horse from every owner and use that money to save U.S. horses from slaughter.  But you do need to take off the rose colored glasses and look very hard at not only the Pros of these ideas, but also the Cons.  Will these ideas, no matter how well intentioned, make things better for horses and horse owners in this country or worse?  This is something that has to be looked into and any negative concequences countered before you even start.  Remember where the road paved with good intentions leads to. 

In any case, I think the best, and not only the quickest and cheapest way to get rid of the demand of horse meat is to make people not want to eat it.  Horse meat became popular because of the fears of eating beef because of mad cow disease.  If the health problems with eating horse meat were made public and are bad enough to put people off of eating horse meat, there most of the problem is solved.  It would be better than forming another government agency where most of the money collected to 'help' horses would go to pay the employees of this agency and very little would go to actually 'helping' horses.

Spotted Pony

 

 

You make some very valid points, SpottedPony.  It sounds to me like what you are saying is you would like to work on the problem, but you have some ideas of your own as to how that should work.  Welcome.

This very small group (we now have six total individual posters on this thread) are a verry, very tiny start to what I would like to see grow into a national cause.  There are mony people who feel as we do, but they don't know where to start, who to talk to, and how to make their ideas work.

That's where we are right now, gathering ideas, and people, and doing one of the hardest things for people to do - come together for a common cause and sustain it through the many challenges and setbacks that will happen.

Maybe something you would consider adding to our burgeoning fund of information is a study of the actual dangers in eating horse meat;  a factual, non-sensational look at health reasons to avoid what we consider to be moral issue.

As for transportation, we all know horses are going to be exported, but there are options that can reduce the risk of a bad ending.  First is to demand that horses be transported in horse trailers, not livestock semis.  Normal large transports for show and race horses are 12-horse, individual stalls, with hay and water and mandatory stops.  If you eliminate packing fifty horses into a livestock trailer, it's really going to make it expensive to transport horses to slaughter; and it's not hard to spot an overloaded livestock trailer. And of course there would need to be a significant penaly for breaking the law.  I'm thinking loss of transport license for ALL livestock.

The idea of adding fees is not so much to save horses from slaughter (although I would hope that would contribute) but to stop people from hoarding horses they can't afford and breeding for the Awwww! factor.  It would also put in place laws that would provide for removal of horses from inadequate care.

The overall goals, I think, are to reduce the horse population to a level unable to sustain slaughter, to try to educate the indifference and ignorance of enough people to make slaughter abhorrent to the average, non horsey American, and to create a system that will be able to prosecute serious offenders.

We welcome all ideas and want to bounce them off each other to see how they would and wouldn't work.  So again - Welcome!

That is correct when we first began discussing this idea it was not so much directed at stopping all trade of horses for human consumption. It was in fact the idea of decreasing the huge excess of horses that either are being shipped out of the country or are now left in a bad situation because of the closing of the slaughter houses. Targeted toward, as it was mentioned, limiting the number of horses that someone can own through registration fees, and also to target breeders of all sizes.

Besides that keep in mind you would not be able to resell a horse that hasn't paid it's registration fee. So if some butcher guy bought a bunch of horses lets say 40 horses, then he would not be able to export them to other countries without having paid the registration first as that would be just as much of a requirement as health records. So now the meat man not only has to pay for the horse but in addition to that has to pay $100 per a head before he can send them to slaughter. That $4000 bill would severely cut into his profit and would probably dissuade him from buying American horses!!!!! On top of that his turn around would not be as quick as he would like while he has to wait for paperwork to be filed, our well established horsey social workers would then be on the case making sure that every horse the butcher buys is fed, watered, has shelter, and any necessary vet attention, because the fines for not providing a healthy living environment would be baaaaaaadddd!!!

Some thoroughbred farms are producing anywhere from 30 to 300+ foals a year just for one individual owner. Hit them with the $500 foal tax and suddenly you have $1500 to $150,000 from that one owner, that can be spent toward the group of people whose sole purpose is to maintain records and physically visit farms to ensure fair treatment of those horses. In an added bonus if I suddenly had to decide if $150,000 was worth breeding all 300 mares or to be more selective about it I guess, at least in my shoes I would be more selective. So even if the one breeder decides to breed half of his mares then the tax has done it's job in that there will be 150 horses less searching for a home after it retires from the track.

Also I really think it is important to talk about people receiving some sort of incentive for spaying and gelding their horses.

I do have a thought about something. The rescue organizations that are out there are already stressed financially to tax them for taking in these unwanted horses really seems like a negative. But if you were to say that the tax shouldn't apply to rescue organizations then everyone would be out there trying to claim that their operation is a rescue. What about this thought? I haven't been able to come up with a good solution for that.

Quote from the Horse Slaughter Thread 

<<I believe the government should,every year, either charge a tax, or registration fee for every horse owned. Maybe say $100. The funds for this money should be directed to an organization developed with the sole purpose of investigating and otherwise checking on every horse in the U.S. >>

End Quote

 The original thread was not "$100 to prevent horses from going to slaughter," it was $100 per horse to increase Government regulation, INVESTIGATION, and control of horses.  That is a HUGE difference.  This is extreme activism, promotion of big government and excessive regulation.  I am completely opposed to this.  

 The government should be concerned with safety of food supply, spread of disease in both crops and animals, handling conditions at the slaughter houses, and stepping in when there are cases of reported neglect or abuse. 

Horse owners that are actively showing, racing, or going to any kind of boarding barns or organized events already pay yearly for Coggins paperwork to verify their horses do not carry EIA and therefore prevent spread of EIA.  This is an appropriate fee and control measure because it protects the horse population from a disease that cannot be vaccinated against and that is transmitted by insects.  This is the type of thing that is appropriate and necessary for regulation and control.

I already vaccinate twice yearly, pull Coggins tests yearly, microchip and register all my horses on my farm, with some of the horses being triple-registered, and have the equine dentist out at least twice yearly.  My vaccinations and Coggins tests run about $2500 per year.  I do not need any more regulation and fees, just for someone to come to my farm to investigate me on the off-chance that I might have a horse that is skin and bones.  

The horses that are standing neglected in somebody's field are NOT having Coggins tests pulled, are NOT getting yearly vaccinations, are NOT getting dental care, are NOT even been fed or given appropriate shelter, do you really think that their owners in good faith will pay an additional fee?  The result of $100 investigation fee will be that those of us already paying to care for our horses properly will end up with unnecessary fees to inspect healthy, multi-registered horses that already have the appropriate Coggins paperwork, while the horses in remote pastures that aren't getting any care at all won't be registered and will continue to be starved or neglected.  And what if I happen to be rehabbing an animal or appropriately working with an older animal with weight issues?  Are my horses going to be seized because there is a misperception that I might be neglecting one of the horses on my property? 

I object to the legislation would require us to give notice before shipping horses.  As long as I have appropriate health paperwork accompanying my horses, I should be able to ship my horses anywhere in the U.S. without notifying anybody that a horse has left my farm. 

I very much appreciate you thoughtful discussion, however I disagree with your opposition. If this were passed to law and you were abiding by that law then you would have nothing to fear of people investigating into your facility. Furthermore if you keep as explicit records as it sounds you do, then if faced with questions about a skinny horse you were rehabbing you should have no problem showing proof that the horse just recently entered your care and explain to the authorities what your situation was. It would be the forgotten neglected and abused horse's owners that would not be able to defend themselves. And if it was found that the owner had not paid the registration fees then there would be obvious consequences to that person.

Again I remind everyone that were not talking about thousands of dollars per a horse. Simply $8.34 per a MONTH!!! The goal again is to dissuade the potential owners that cannot financially care for horses from ever owning/breeding them. I truly believe if you have enough money to own them than $100 per a year/horse is not that large of a fee. It is obvious from the direction things are going that without some regulation it will only get worse.

The horses that are fortunate enough to be under the care of knowledgeable horse people that recognize all their needs, will find their money going to the better good of the poor horses victimized by negligent owners. If your beloved horse ended up in a horrible neglected/abused situation I ask you; how much would you pay to get him out of it???

 

The idea of imposing fees just to own horses is misguided. Well intentioned, absolutely, but I don't feel it will work and on top of that, it's another way of eroding individual rights of horse owners specifically, and Americans in general. We don't need more rules, we need to (be able to) enforce the ones we already have.

First, I don't feel that the sale of horses for human or animal consumption is wrong, while I personally don't choose to dine on horseflesh, I won't deny someone else that right. I don't have a problem with slaughtering old, crippled pathetic animals that might just waste away somewhere consuming resources that a young, healthy animal could be utilizing.  What I DO have a problem with is if the animal is abused in the process of being transported or slaughtered. I DO have a problem with breeders that crank up production of foals without a legitimate demand...

 Yes, horses are wonderful, noble animals that have come to be deemed as companions and pets, and deserve respect and the best care in terms of handling and basic needs. I love all horses and donkeys and I hate to see the negelected, abused animals that are more and more common these days. But, animals DO serve human needs. It may sound mean to say it that way, but it's less cruel to put down a horse that's no longer useful than it is to breed the monstrosties we call dogs these days and we create all kinds of defects that can make the animals miserable that gets passed down over and over. Horses are only recently considered companions, and they are great friends to many of us, but they really are no better than cows or pigs that we dine on. In another country we would be barbaric for eating cows because they are sacred animals in their culture. It's a cultural thing. In some tribes, the favorite pet dog is slaughtered to give the owner strength, but that's horrifiying to us. But in the end, horses are just animals, not humans ,no matter how much we may wish they were people.

And before I get attacked for my opinion, I have shed many tears over animals that I had to put down or found out later ended up as dog food because I was very attatched to them. I do love my animals and it IS hard to say that if something were to happen to one of my horses and I couldn't afford to keep them comfortable or find a someone else that could, I would not hesitate to put them down or send them to a humane slaughter,when I ran out of other options. They are very dear to me and I spend a small fortune to keep them healthy and happy.But the idea of paying a fee to have the priveledge to own them P****s me off.

 Banning slaughter is a great dis-service to these animals. It does provide a humane disposal service, and let's face it, with many laws that make it quite costly to dispose of and inconvenient to handle a dead animal of this size, disposal is an issue. Also, while it's hard to think of "old Nellie" going to slaughter, it's also much harder, and cruel, to let Old Nellie stand around feeling the years catch up, making life miserable until you just find the corpse in the field. I, personally would want to euthanize her before that point. Now, that being said, slaughter in the US wasn't as bad as presented.

Yes, killing any animal is not pretty, but in an age of recycling, using the meat for feeding people or other animals and avoiding contaminating water supplies and chemicals from the euthanasia potentially being consumed by wild animals, makes a lot of sense.

And believe me, euthanasia is not always as humane as people want to believe. It shuts down body systems one by one, but they are aware of what's going on, while they are chemically restrained from reacting. It's a horrible torture to think about when in fact they smother to death first, but a rubber bullet removes conciousness before they can even feel anything and they are dead. Honest vets will tell you a shot to the head is humane. What becomes of the corpse afterwards has not affect on how "humane" it is.

Registering horses like cats or dogs to control the number allowed to be owned is not going to work in the end. Besides, unforseen circumstances can and do happen, so what if someone was able to license the animal in the beginning? An abusive jerks can have PLENTY of money to pay the fee, but still treat the animal like crap. And just like with the dogs/cats, people will dodge it anyways.

It's naive to think we can control everyone else with a simple registration to treat their animals they way we think they should be treated. There are already laws to protect the neglected/abused, and if we focus more on actually punishing the abusers, rather than trying to impose new rules, we could prevent a lot more. There have to be very public examples of the abusers going to jail and being punished to be a real deterrant to would-be offenders. Registration is like the 7 day waiting period to buy a gun. It really only stops the responsible people, but won't do a d*** thing for the real problem people.