I have a 9 year old Canadien mare who I am going in to my 3rd summer with. I don't think she received much handling as a youngster, just some minimal training and then she was bred. I got her about a year after she foaled and again she was in a situation with very little handling, so we were starting from a weird place. We have worked through many issues and she has been tested for all physical issues that can have an impact on attitude, lymes disease, granuosa tumor, tooth problems, and I just started regumate. Nothing seems to change the teeth baring, charging when she is at liberty. I can go into the barn and she will bare her teeth and lunge at the bars on her stall, when I offer my hand she relaxes, I grab her halter and everything is fine. In the field when I go to catch her, not everytime, it is the same thing, which is scary as she will actually spin her butt around and threaten to kick. When she is in hand she is fine, she is fun to ride, she trailers well, loves the woods, is fine for the farrier and cute as a button. I really like her but this behavior is upsettin and my vet seems to think potentially dangerous, although I feel forewarned is forarmed and I am just sort of getting used to her mean streak as she has never actually done anything stupid just makes a lot of noise. Any advice?

Oona

oona:

Nothing seems to change the teeth baring, charging when she is at liberty... she will bare her teeth and lunge at the bars on her stall... she will actually spin her butt around and threaten to kick... but this behavior is upsettin and my vet seems to think potentially dangerous...

BUT...

 

oona:

she is fun to ride, she trailers well, loves the woods, is fine for the farrier and cute as a button. I really like her...

By all accounts, Scott Peterson and Charles Manson are model prisoners, too... as long as they're kept away from the public, watched and closely controlled 24/7.

The behavior you describe is the last thing many horse owners/handlers see before they are sent to the hospital or killed on the spot. And no amount of "Yeah, but..." makes her demeanor any less dangerous. There are lots of resources for information about dominant and aggressive behavior in horses on the web. There's quite a few archived right here on the ES forum, too (eg: search word "dominance, dominant, etc."). I encourage everyone who has the basic capabilities to learn how to train their own horses. But this is not a horse behavior you should be starting to learn on and correct yourself. This mare needs PROFESSIONAL help.

oona:

...although I feel forewarned is forarmed and I am just sort of getting used to her mean streak as she has never actually done anything stupid just makes a lot of noise.

Horses do not do anything stupid. There's always a reason behind their actions. It only APPEARS stupid when we humans can't understand why the horse is acting out and refuse to listen to them or just can't understand what they're saying. This horse is shouting out a call for help. YOU may be able to read this horse well enough to protect yourself... for now. But there will come a day when your attention is diverted and you pay the price. Not to mention other people who may come in contact with the mare who have little or no knowledge of what she's capable of. And I'm not just talking about vets, farriers or other peripheral horse persons. I'm thinking of a little wide-eyed girl with a handful of grass for the nice horsey.

Unless there is an underlying neurological cause, I'm fairly certain this behavior can be changed by a knowledgeable and diligent PROFESSIONAL trainer. Try to find one that will allow you to watch, learn and gain valuable experience that may serve you in the future. But there are no circumstances under which I can recommend you tackle this by yourself. This behavior should NOT be ignored, accepted or compensated for in any way whatsoever. It needs to be changed right now. Good luck! ~FH

FloridaHorseman:

 I'm fairly certain this behavior can be changed by a knowledgeable and diligent PROFESSIONAL trainer. Try to find one that will allow you to watch, learn and gain valuable experience that may serve you in the future. But there are no circumstances under which I can recommend you tackle this by yourself. This behavior should NOT be ignored, accepted or compensated for in any way whatsoever. It needs to be changed right now. Good luck! ~FH

 Florida, you took the words right out of my fingers.  This mare does not sound like a project for the uninitiated.  And the idea that this mare could injure someone else is really important.  Keeping horses counts as an "attractive nuisance" in legal terms.  Keeping an horse that is unpredictable to the extent that an inexperienced horse person could become an innocent bystander in a serious situation is nothing to take lightly. 

Get help with the mare.  You'll be glad later that you did.

Around a stallion, we're usually quite concious of our safety.  Around a mare, we tend to be less so.

One time, my wife and I were returning a mare we were considering for purchase to a paddock she shared with another.  My wife went in first while I followed with the horse.  The mare in the pasture was crowding the gate, so my wife swatted her in the butt.  That mare moved away then retaliated with a kick that imprinted just under my wife's chin.  Had she been half an inch closer to the kick, she would have snapped her neck.

I pulled the mare I was leading between my fallen wife and the other mare.  Others quickly rushed to the scene.  It's only in the aftermath that we learned to beware of that mare.

Perhaps dominant mares need a warning marker, like a ribbon on their mane.

The unfortunate and serious injury to your wife certainly illustrates the point we are all trying to make about proper and responsible horse husbandry, GF. It's even more of a contentious problem at a shared facility, where such poor examples are allowed to be at liberty with the general population and owners are at risk of injury while turning out or retrieving their own horses.

There is absolutely nothing that can be done about boarded horses sorting out and maintaining their own pecking order in the field. And although there will be an alpha leader in the herd, there will also be a descending order of dominance below that. Knowing where your horse falls in that order and which surrounding horses are going to assert themselves at a moment when you may have your horse in hand is a daunting study. This situation is one of many reasons it is imperative to instill and demand complete respect from your horse at all times. Even a herd dominant horse so trained will recognize ALL humans as being ULTIMATELY dominant. Not just the owner or trainer.

But we must try to safely live in a world where some other owners are not so mindful of their responsibilities to the horse and those who may be exposed to it. My head is on a swivel even when I'm between my OWN horses. In a boarding paddock environment I'm on even higher alert, using all my skill at reading horses, announcing my dominance with body language and ready to immediately address the slightest hint of a challenge from anywhere that may place me in danger.

IMO, a horse that behaves such as the one we initially addressed in this post should certainly not be at liberty in a boarding population for the very reason of GF's example. 

Trail riders on horses known to kick when approached from the rear traditionally tie a red ribbon warning on the tail. But in a paddock or pasture environment, because of the descending herd order, there's a very good chance you can be injured by a horse NOT tagged with a ribbon while you're closely watching the one who is. 

Once the respect and dominance issues are successfully understood and met, horse training becomes almost so simple (dare I say it?)... a caveman could do it.

The marker ribbon identifying "the dominant one in the herd" idea does have SOME merit, I think. I may start wearing one on the top button of my shirt. It'll be just for show, though. Because it's the very first thing all horses I work or mingle with find out.

Then we work on trust...

~FH

The marker ribbon identifying "the dominant one in the herd" idea does have SOME merit, I think. I may start wearing one on the top button of my shirt. It'll be just for show, though. Because it's the very first thing all horses I work or mingle with find out.

Then we work on trust...

 

Right on FH!!!   I've seen too many posts like this where the poster is told to groom and pet, hug and kiss and call the horse baby, make friends with it and win its trust and magically all would be well.  I agree with you, respect first, then trust.  I am the boss mare of my little herd.  When I say git, they git.   And having a very dominate horse is no excuse either.  I had a dominate mare who was the boss of any herd she was with, but she understood that she had a boss she had to submitt to.  Because of that, she wasn't the one who caused problems, but she sure as heck would straighten out any trouble making horse she was turned out with. 

Spotted Pony   

We know of Erin Gray, owner of the Iberrian Sorraia stallion, Sovina.  She's been a full-time professional horse trainer for a vey long time.  She's an impressive lady. Last I heard, she was going to work on a documentary video with Oregon Public Broadcasting on wild caught Keiger Mustang training.  Wish we could have her do a clinic at our place.

Anyway, she told us she was showing Sovina.  He was doing fine until a mare in the show ring pee'd.  His hormones kicked in and he bucked Erin off!.  Erin was so mad at this breakdown of discipline, that she grabbed and yanked Sovina's erect penis.  The stallion dropped to his knees!  She had his attention.

Erin got up, remounted and finished the show to the cheers of the crowd.

To grab a stallion by his ding-a-ling and have him plead for mercy.  Now that's dominance!

gypsy fly:

To grab a stallion by his ding-a-ling and have him plead for mercy.  Now that's dominance!

That may account for the relatively sparse population of married male posters on this and other horse forums! LOL! ~FH  <----- (divorced and STILL dominant!)

FloridaHorseman:

relatively sparse population of married male posters

Maybe so.  But there are advantages.  Who needs Kegel when you have a cowgirl? 

Say squeeze!