Hello all,

I'm starting to think about buying my own horse, but not quite ready yet.  So, I've started looking at Dreamhorse and Equine.com and considering going to look at a few.  I am trying to get a good idea of what's out there and what exactly I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to get a Quarter Horse that I can use as an all-around horse.  I don't necessarily want to compete on the national level, but more in local and state shows.  I ride both English and Western.  Well, I found a horse online that is near me and I'm considering going to get a look at him.  He is a 5 year old gelding, sorrel, who has been shown in many events.  According to the add he has been trained to spur stop.  

I have no idea what a spur stop is or how it works.  Is this desirable?  If not, is this something that could be easily changed?  Like I said, I'm not at the buying stage yet, but I figure I should probably know as much as I can.  Any explanations would be greatly appreciated.

Kristin 

Thanks for the input.  I'm really not at the point to buy yet, although I will probably go and look at the horse.  I just had never really heard of that technique.  The trainer I have been riding with the last few years seems to consider a spur stop "undesirable".  But, as an animal trainer, I know that there isn't always just one correct cue.  A cue can be anything you choose, its teaching it that can be easy or hard.  I'm trying to be a well-educated buyer, looking for all the advice, information, I can get.  Once I choose any horse I plan on taking a few lessons with it in order to really get to know it.  Its one thing to see the owner ride, its another when you try to do it.  The mount I'm riding now took me about 1 year before we really clicked. 

Thanks again,

Kristin

If you are considering keeping the trainer, don't get this horse.  As QHAllaround stated, a spur stop trained horse can be a delight to ride.  But, you have to learn how to push the buttons.  If your trainer doesn't like a spur stop horse, the trainer won't want to work with you on it.

My daughter has a ss trained horse.  He's incredible.  We decided to buy him, and take lessons from the trainer who had him.  I'm not saying she's Stacey Westfall, but she can ride him bridleless and do flying lead changes, spins, etc.  She rides him English (on the flat) and Western, he's qualified for the World's in English Eq, he's won the State 4-H Horse Show in Stock Seat a couple of times.  He's pretty good at Showmanship, too.  (Nothing to do with spurs!)  In Trail Class, he's absolutely wonderful!

Generally speaking, a ss trained horse will have more training in him than the "average" horse.  Some people overdo the ss, and sometimes if misused, it can present an ugly picture in the show ring.  Used correctly, however, it's a thing of beauty!

2k10h

Well, I am on the other side of the fence...my mare is SS trained, and I am working to untrain her...she *hates* spurs because of how she was trained (the trainer would get mad and stab, stab, stab). I play Stacy Westfall, too, with her...no spurs, bareback, rope halter...and she is just as responsive to my leg (actually, much better...no tail swishing, pinned ears, hump back, bucking).  Her "trainer" was amazed one day when we were practicing trail class (this was before I stopped dealing with her)...Starlette did almost everything (and it was her first time), sans spurs, with an eggbutt snaffle...

I think spurs are for finished riding.  I've heard too many horror stories (and have a minor one myself) with spur abuse..maybe it's just WP, but I see the 2 year olds next door being framed so tight that I can't imagine that they will be sound when they are 8 or 9 (and yes, she does have leg/hock/knee problems over there).  It is a beautiful thing to watch, but is it healthy for the horse?

Again, I have to agree with QHALLAround.  My daughters spur stop trained horse has never been abused.  You don't jab  the horse with the spur, you touch him with them.  Sometimes, you roll the spur up and down on his side, but we use blunt 9 rowel spurs.  A spur allows you to be more precise with your cues than with just leg pressure. 

By the way, if you were to watch Stacey Westfall's bridleless bareback freestyle reining ride at Congress, you would see that she DOES wear spurs!

I'm not saying that only ss trained horses are well trained.  There are many great horses that are not ss trained.  But, the original poster was asking for advice as to whether to purchase a ss trained horse.  We have to assume that it IS a properly trained ss horse (like my daughter's) and not being "spurred" by a poor trainer.  With that assumption, I would advise her to buy the horse only if she wants to learn how to ride a ss trained horse.  Since her trainer advised her not to buy the ss trained horse, I'm assuming the trainer doesn't know how to ride a ss trained horse, and therefore, doesn't like it.  It would be best for the horse to go to someone who wants a ss trained horse.

 Can a ss trained horse be retrained?  Sure.  But, IMHO, it would be better to find a good horse with conventional training unless the OP wants to learn the ss technique, and that would probably mean finding a new trainer.

2k10h

It *is* hard to retrain...before I actually owned Starlette, they showed me how to "make her work" and it's kewl all the litte cues...shifting gears with a touch, etc.  I do think knowting that is making it a tad easier to retrain her...the hardest is getting her to canter, she keeps waiting for the poke!  We had a good day yesterday doing trot/canter transitions (she's got the walk/trot down now) with leg pressure.  Once I know she's got a good understanding of leg pressure, then I *might* go back and use spurs once in a while..but she does not have a good foundation under her, and that's what I am working on now.  She should have been able to do everything without spurs!  This has taken me over a year to get her to this point (she has some other trust issues she has gotten past, also).  One thing about retraining...unless you at least understand the signals, I can see how retraining a SS horse would be very difficult.

Edit to add:  I might be influenced by the little I've seen...however, the was another horse brought in, SS/ST and she also could not be ridden without spurs (or at least, get any good response without KickKickKick without spurs).  Maybe it's the fault of the WP industry...train 'em quick to show 'em quick...but there is a lot of controversy out there that I've run into with that type of training...maybe it's like the racing industry, we see the ones that break down, yet there are breeders who take their time, not race as 2 year olds, and have sound horses that can have a second career.

I do understand what you are saying...however, that is really not Starlette's problem (too many buttons).  Problem is she has a few, and they were "prodded" into her...I saw this "trainer" work with another 2 year old and know how she trains.  I'm sure the ones that are trained properly are really great!

I don't wear spurs and with the type of riding I do, probably won't ever need to.

There was a lesson horse in the barn who had a spur stop--it was great.  All we had to do was put our heels on him, sans spurs, and pull them up a couple inches, and he'd stop.  I really enjoyed him, he was a well-trained horse.

Mary 

"I don't wear spurs and with the type of riding I do, probably won't ever need to."

 Well, if you don't wear spurs AND KNOW HOW TO USE THEM PROPERLY you would not be able to ride my daughter's horse! 

Before we bought Findlay, my daugher had never worn spurs.  In fact, the first time she rode him, for the first ten minutes she rode him (at a walk and trot) she didn't.  He rode ok, but he wasn't "Findlay".  The trainer then took her spur off, and strapped them on my daughter's boots while she was still in the saddle.  She showed her how  to cue with them.  Oh, my daughter was afraid of hurting him, but when she found all she had to do was "touch" him with the spur, then he responded!  Oh WOW!  Suddenly the horse transformed from being a plodder (a somewhat resistant one at that) to being nimble and light!  We bought him on the spot!  (Well, it actually took us a coiuple of weeks, but our decision was made!)

It took several months before my daugher learned all of Findlay's cues.  You don't jab him with the spur, all it takes is a touch at a certain spot.  Now, it's called a spur stop because if you apply both spurs at the same time, he stops.  (Most people think spurring a horse stimulates him to go faster, as in applying the whip in a horse race.)  The spur stop does just the opposite.  It slows him down.  So, the idea is you can slow him down without moving the reins.  Your cue becomes virtually impossible to see.  That's GREAT in the Show Ring. 

The ss is a Show Horse technique.  If you don't show, you don't need it.  (Unless you love the high degree of control you gain, and want it for all your horses!  LOL!! )

As for the use of spurs in general:  I was at a Clinton Anderson clinic, and he was doing a demonstration, and he was showing how to do leg yields, etc.  Clinton had on spurs.  Someone in the audience asked if spurs were required.  Clinton said, "You don't have to wear spurs to ride a horse.  But, if you want to have a horse as light and as responsive as I like to have mine, you do."  Selah.

 2kids10horses