My horse has been getting carried away at the canter lately.We get going and then all of a sudden she'll start to go faster and when I pull back and try toslow her down or stop her she pulls her head forward towards the ground and plows along. There have been a few times that I didn't think I was going to be able to stop her. She has started doing it more now so my trainer and I are thinking we need to change her bit. Right now she has a d-ring snaffle but we are going to try a few other ones to see if anything works better. What kind of bits do you guys use for H/J? Has anyone else had their horse act like this?

Sweet -- I am pursuing a personal goal of being the first person to reply to all of your threads.  I think this means my life is pathetic.... 

I now highly recommend the 3-ring elevator with a french mouth.  It does a beautiful job of lifting the forehand and supporting your half halt without any chains and allowing you to be much softer and lighter in the horse's mouth.  Solo was the same way, would get very heavy on the forehand at the canter in my D-ring Myler snaffle and my arms were soooooooo tired.  Jumping Solo has gone from dump truck to sports car!  I love love love this bit and he likes it too.

 I love that you reply and you always have good advice so I thank you. Is this bit legal in the hunter show ring? Jumping he, or even just cantering on the flat has become a huge pain. Once we have done a few jumps during my lessons she always starts this up too so I want to be sure I can use it in the ring when I start showing.

 I actually don't know -- my hunch is that it is not, although IMO it's much nicer than a Pelham or a Kimberwicke and they're all over the hunter ring, so who knows.  

Even if it is not allowed in your shows, it can still make a big difference -- by picking up Solo's front end, it has made his canter so much more balanced so now he is using the right muscles and building them properly instead of continuing to go around on his shoulder.  I still use my D-ring for the dressage work and the elevator makes him lighter in the D-ring too -- it's a feedback loop.  Elevator picks up shoulder = builds good muscle and balance = horse is now better ABLE to carry itself in balance and slower because of muscle = lighter on the regular snaffle that you can then use in show.  

If you really don't want to go that route, I'd recommend a pelham -- you can just use the snaffle rein until you want to pick her up and then use the curb to apply the leverage.  The only reason I didn't use the pelham/kimberwicke is that Solo HATES chin pressure and HATES any kind of curb chain action so that just wasn't an option for him.

Dang it, I'm still the replier....*chants*  pretend to have life, pretend to have life........

Well done Solaris - you are becoming a one woman answering machine

My advice would be to concentrate on an effective half halt, not pulling on the mouth to make your horse stop or slow down - you are only creating an argument - and I am going to guess this horse is off the track - the harder you pull the more she will pull against your hand getting heavier on the forehand and boring down and consequently getting faster.

Its easier to get a harsher bit, but that in itself will only half fix the problem because your horse will work out how to avoid that one and so on and so on.

Myself, I ride in a eggbut Boucher Snaffle - my horse is training at 3rd level dressage - sometimes we ride in a double - but I can honestly say I can bring my horse back from a flat tack gallop to a collected canter off my legs/half halt/seat - develop strength in your seat and legs have your horse truly working forward using its hind end and back and you wont need a harsh bit.

 Dang it, I can't BELIEVE I'm replying again....but I did want to say, I do agree with your points as well AMM -- but a bit can provide lift without being harsh.  In educated hands, changing bits is like using synonyms -- you are just choosing a different "word" to communicate better.  But you should ALSO be working hard to teach your horse to repond to a good half halt and to use your seat and leg, etc.  But you have to teach that half halt -- that's great that you can bring your horse back that way, but I can tell you that there is no way under the sun I can do that with Solo fast enough to rebalance him in the middle of a tight jumper course right now -- a galloping horse locked on to a jump is very different from a dressage horse transitioning in a test.  Not that the same priciples don't apply -- like I said, I TOTALLY agree with you that you should work towards being able to rebalance with just your seat and leg.  But I have learned over the years that there are many tools in the toolbox and as long as you are using them in an appropriate manner and are experienced in the application, they can be very useful to help you progress towards your goals.  And at the same time, you should not become dependent upon that tool such that you cannot do without it -- it should help you advance and leave it behind once the lesson has been learned.

ETA -- the elevator is not that different from the Boucher snaffle you use -- just because it has three rings doesn't mean you have to use the end ones.  For just flat work before a jump course, I only use the second ring and am able to be very light on the rein and my horse is now balanced enough that I can use my leg more effectively because his is now using his body in a much more flexible manner.

I had bit respect issues with Bennett too (my training bad). I've ridden her in a various amount of bits; a full cheek french link, regular french link, a sandpaper snaffle bit, a full cheeck slow twist, a d-ring snaffle and two types of smooth twist (a smaller and bigger one and by that I mean the thickness of the bit). Bennett's always been heavy on the forehand so I'd show her in a full cheek slow twist but went back to my d-ring snaffle. We then got into some tug-of-wars (and guess who won those!!!) and it progressed to a slight bolting issue. Oops, my bad!

In any case, I went to a clinic and we did a lot of bending/giving and respect of the bit work. Bennett was still quite . . .umm. . . obstinate about it so that's where the two types of smooth twists came in. Mine (the thicker one) and another boarder's. I only rode in the small sized twist for 1 of the lessons and for a couple of rides when I got back home. I then changed to mine and have been riding in that one for a while. I just ordered a new bit that I haven't tried yet. It's a snaffle with sweat iron inlays. It's classified as a western bit (don't know why, maybe because it's not silver??) but I got it since I knew the thickness of it was smaller than my own D-ring and want to see if she'll be as respectful of this one as she is in the twist.

As of now in the smooth twist, if she tries any "let's-go-faster-at-the-canter" moves or one of her "OMG-there's-a-horse-eating-bush!" freak-outs, a half halt checks her back and control is regained quickly.

If I were you, and if possible, I'd try to borrow a multitude of bits to see which one fits the best before going out and buying a whole bunch.

I do agree with AMM regarding the training thing, where sometimes the stronger bit isn't always the answer, but IMO if your horse has already figured out it can disregard you, you need that stronger bit for a couple of rides to get the respect back and get their attention before addressing the underlining training issue.

It won't help your attempts to flex and soften and use your seat if your horse plows through your hands at the canter and keeps getting away with it. The concept will be lost on the beastie. Been there, have the arm muscles to proove it!

Good luck and I hope you find the right one soon!

Hahaha Solaris - heres another opportunity to reply

I think you have just hit the nail on the head with your sentence ".....Using them in an appropriate manner and EXPERIENCED in the application"

Not knowing the experience of the OP, we all know that tools used in the wrong hands can have a detrimental effect, its like draw reins, side reins, chambons etc etc all good tools when used in the RIGHT hands!

Coming from a showjumping background I know what you mean about a horse being locked onto the jump but I have seen some shocking results from people who ride with their hands only and using gags, for arguments sake, because they cannot satisfactorily control the horse.

The Boucher is not an elevator bit at all - it works on poll pressure and encourages the horse to take the bit downwards and reach for the contact as opposed to encouraging the horse to lift its head, which is what the OP is having a problem with, the horse lugging down on the bit and hands and generally being ignorant of the rider.

and I agree with you that there are many many tools available these days to help achieve the desired result, I just dont beleive that changing the bit to something harsher should be the first port of call!

Have a good one

Hi Irishrider,

So you have incresed energy, changed point of balance and now running through your hands on the forehand!

A couple of things you have not mentioned , How old your mare is? How far into her training is she? ect ect.

I am going to have a guess and say that all had been going reasonable...nothing flash but you could handle her. As she has developed and become stronger she has changed the way she uses her energy and has actually bought her point of balance forward and is now losing some balance ( going heavy onto the forehand) in the canter as she has become more impulsive.

This is a natural part of a horses development in training...we want that...but if we don't keep a check on the learning process we feel that a horse becomes extremely strong and "running through our hand". You have to look at the mechanics and energies of the horse, she is really needing your help right now and if you don't intervene she will lose confidence in you as her rider.

There is no such thing as a hard mouth...only a horse that has become disrespectable. But sometimes the horse who is learning steps into no-mans land and really is neither respectable or disrepectable due to fact that she is now in unfamiliar territory and so are you.

We all wish horses were imprinted with the knowledge of how to go up through the grades with out too much fuss but we live in the real world. We also have to workout how our horse individually files information. In other words...does it take your mare 2,or 3 or maybe 4 times to realise what you are teaching her and file the material in a solid fashion? Or is she a bit of a dizzy horse, or a doughy horse or a "just don't get it horse"?

Its all relevent!

She has "come forward" and in doing so she needed you or your trainer to intervene and teach her how to re-balance in her stronger more energised pace. Yes half halts are good but believe me when your mare gets too the stage that she is at.... its both hands feeling like outside reins!

You will feel like your hands are forming a "brick wall" by not allowing her to "run through your hands" (she is trying to find balance). Your hands should only allow the rein out to a certain distance...enough for her to be "on the bit". But as your hands say to her head" stay here" she will think you are saying "slow down, downward transition"...She reads it as "pulling on my mouth and you want me to slow down" you then must apply leg to remain in regular pace...to maintain the pace! Her energy has come forward and its become strong on your hands and you must change her point of balance back...re-adjust the energy and balance, have her place more weight onto her quarters. You will feel like 200kgs go onto your hand. You are getting her to act as a spring...coiling her body in. Nose throught to tail rounds over the back.Sit up and use your centre core to maintain your balance and strengths.

 Think of it like this..I am holding a dressage whip, one hand on either end. Now I am going to push the 2 ends together...what do I get? The dressage whip goes in an upward curve ( the round horse) but I feel even pressure at the front of the whip and even pressure at the back (Connection). If I have too much pressure at front the front of the whip bends in more at the front (Too much resisting hand which causes neck to shorten...horse to slow down....Wrong) If I have too much pressure at the back of the whip, the whip makes my front hand feel like it wants to push forward( too much leg and so horse is running through hand- again wrong).

So you see you maybe in unfamiliar territory.

Now you see why people get a bigger and stronger bit. You must train your horse, you must help her...you are her trainer...she is asking for help. If it is out of your league employ a trainer to take her through this difficult moment.

You will get a couple of strides that seem nice...soften at that time..SOFTEN (NO RESISTING) BUT don't give the reins away because believe me it will only be 1-3 strides that are nice...then back on forehand..Repeat exercise over 5 to 7 minutes at a time ..then rest. Why rest hahahaha you both would had run out of energy! She will change, she will re-balance and she will strengthen within her "frame". She will become very soft and so will you. Make it "uncomfortable " within her frame when she is wrong and "comfortable" when she is correct(her reward) You must be patient and help her. She will think you are the god almighty of horses.

Do this in all her paces. Don't let her go on the forehand.

No need for bigger bit just better training methods.

Good luck

Trace

Hee hee, AMM, now I just HAVE to reply.  I don't disagree with anything you said -- just having talked to the OP  several other times, I'm pretty sure she's not one just to jump to a bit without attacking all points of training.  But I totally second your points too!

 Wow! Thanks for all of the responses. I came back to work this morning and found all of these. I really appreciate it. I will try to touch on things everyone has said. This might get long so I apologize.

My mare is an 11 year old Hanoverian. She is not off the track. My trainer has known her since she was 4 years old. Then the lady that owned her sold to another friend of the trainer. Her daughter rode her in shows a bit of XC and then decided that she wanted to do more dressage. This horse is not a fan of Dressage, prefers hunters, so the lady sold her to me and now she is back with my trainer's barn. My trainer did mention that she remembers this horse doing the exact same thing way back when. She has had quite a bit of training throughout her life. She has also been shown, etc. So she isn't a green horse. She is also a fairly calm, sweet horse. She has a bit of attitude to her. Not mean at all, but she's a mare with typical mare attitudes at times. I think she can be stubborn and strongwilled.

Impulsion had an interesting comment about new found energy. Some of you may remember my post about how much weight my horse lost. Since the previous owner's daughter bought a dressage horse, she lost interest in this mare and she was in a pasture getting fat for a few months before I bought her. Since then, she has lost a lot of weight and is looking better all the time. So this new found energy could probably be from shedding these pounds and feeling better, which makes me happy. So when I first got her she was never like this. Never. She was always very good at the canter, sometimes even too slow. And she never barreled through a jump like she has started doing. This has all come to fruition within the last 2 months. At first I thought it was a fluke and now it is every single time I get on her.  I need to be able to bring her back to me in between jumps and right now that isn't happening. Even between a 5 stride line she yanks me out of the saddle after landing and then I try to slow her down but can't and by that time we have reached the jump and I have to hang on.

My trainer said that she has fashioned a device for some of the horses she has ridden in the past to help train them where there head should be. Sort of a reverse martingal, if you will. It prevents the horse from being able to put her head down towards the ground. I wonder if that wouldn't be a good thing to try. 

As one of the other posters said, some people are too quick to change the bit. It was my trainer's suggestion though which is why I wanted to do some research. My concern is she IS being disrespectful and without a little aid to correct that, at least at first, then everything else will be useless. I beieve this was one of AsthonGal's points. I just need to correct this quickly because the idea of this happening in the show ring freaks me out. I'll already be a ball of nerves showing for the first time and then if she does this and I can't regain control I forsee disaster.

 Like Solaris said, have your horse lift her head. My horse was doing this EXACT same thing. My trainer rode him a few times to get rhythm to the canter, and to keep him from falling on his forehand and zooming ahead, just a light tug up when he pulls down. And I have had to learn to GIVE and let go, not hang on when he goes fast. The more I relax and give some with the reins, the better he has gotten. I wouldn't change the bit. Stronger bits sometimes make a horse more nervous and get stronger as a result. You won't win in a tug of war even with a strong bit. Instead, ride with balance (make sure you are not leaning forward), an elastic body, with giving hands and a little pull up - right away - when her head goes down.We had a nice, soft collected canter the other day, it was wonderful, and in an eggubutt bit with a small flat link.

 I totally understand what you are saying. The problem is, when I lightly tug up when I feel her pull down, she just pulls down harder. It doesn't get her to lift her head. It's almost as if it ticks her off even more so she gets this "I'll show you" attitude and goes faster and lower. That's where I run into problems because she isn't responding to me.

The local schooling shows I like here allow the elevator, but the other h/j schooling shows here do not, so I think it is NOT a legal h/j bit (the group I like theirs shows is more of a western group but they've added english, h/j, due to demand, so I think they're more lax).

My mare Summer is, like Solo, SO MUCH BETTER in that bit. Previous owner used a boucher, and sent it with her when I bought her, but it wasn't working well for my strong fast pony. She's a good girl, jsut has TONS of speed! haha ;) (LOTS of transition work is helping that though, I have hopes to move her to a french link snaffle in the future!)

Jessi

 I think we only have one A rated show here each year. Most of them are just nice, small shows. So I might get away with that type of bit ,if I found that it works for me, at the smaller ones. I have a lesson today so we'll see.