I bought a 5 yr old mare, Luna----grandaughter of Holy Bull---spitting image! off the track in Sept 07. She had a slight bowed tendon from her second race (and last) earlier in the year and had been treated kindly but left to heal for the months after in a pasture w/ hormonal broodmares. She was thoroughly examined by vets and told she will not be hindered by her injury and should be able to jump to moon. So I brought her home and started her retraining slowly, w/ the help of my trainer. She was super quiet and came along easily, by Christmas we were working towards 2'6", she framed up beautifully, had a perfect collected trot, all i had to do was turn my head in the direction we wanted to go and she would follow, would jump anything and everything, was the barn favorite and was only worked 3 times a week so she would have lots of let down time. Her rides were between 30 min and an hour long. The only issue we had was that she did not have a balanced canter yet and would try to buck now and then and it was either very fast or very slow. So June 08 comes around, she turns 5 and her personality changes. She starts biting, rearing on the lunge  and on the way to or from the arena. I can barely keep her at a trot, she spooks at nothing (although not the tractors the run the fields around the ring, weird). Cantering is awful, I have to sit so deep, "the power position" as its called by my trainer, that my body feels like jelly when were done, the entire time and she squeals, bucks, whinnies, riding her has become a chore and i am so sore. Forget jumping. Sometimes when working her or just doing anything w/ her she will get so focused  on something in the distance, like the soccer kids across the street, the it is impossible to get her to focus back on me and every muscle in her body will be taught and shaking. I know she is a young tb mare and is supposed to be uruly at times but i have been riding ex race horses for over 14 years and have never had such a hard time.  So things I have tried...

She almost always worked at the same time. I had her on mare magic for a few months, took the edge off her biting and spooking but nothing else, had a noted equine massage therapist from the local tracks work on her a few times (EXPENSIVE) she said the she was very sore over the hips, so now I do a daily massage w/ sore no more before and after I ride or whether i ride or not. And I put her on MSM and E-SE-Mag for sore muscles/joints and attitude and took her off the mare magic. She is moving freer (yay?) but I am still in a funk. Any ideas or help will be greatly appreciated. I do not want to be forced to sell her because i can not handle her.

Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Massage Therapist is good but I'd call on a Equine Chiropracter. All the massaging in the world won't help if the bones themselves are out of place... Might also be why you had such a hard time at the canter with her previously... Also, Have you had her teeth checked? I know that's a basic thing that most check first. I'm just trying to throw ideas out there, even basic ones... Odd that her whole personality would flip overnight like that.... Hope others can help you more then me.... :(

 I would definitely call a chiropractor.   If you rule out physical issues, I'd also think seriously about slowing down her training.  Progressing too quickly can create marked changes in a horse like you've seen as well.  They will go along beautifully until one day they hit a wall and crack.  Training does create pressure on them mentally as well as physically, and she's a young thing still, so take your time bringing her along.

Thank you for the replies! I have been told to look in to a chiropractor before, my trainer uses one for her lesson ponies that i will definitly be looking into. Hopefully I can afford it but I am borderline desperate!

It sounds from your note like the problem came on fairly suddenly, so I would first suspect a physical issue. You mentioned you had the massage therapist out, but did you consult a vet and have him/her do a full workup? I would look for sources of pain. I'd particularly have the vet check her eyes.  I also agree with the person who suggested having the dentist look at her if you haven't had her teeth done in the last 6-8 months. I would also consider having a reputable saddle fitter come check your saddle. Horses change shape with age and condition and a saddle that fit her previously as a youngster may now be way too tight.

Another consideration is her diet. What is she being fed and how much? Have you tried removing carbohydrates from her diet and stuck with pellets or a low-starch feed. Is she getting enough hay? Is she getting enough turnout? Was there anything else that changed in her life/management around the same time as her attitude? (Change of location, feed, tack, pasturemates, etc.? Even the smallest detail may be a clue.)

Now, the one thing to consider is that the behavior may have started due to some pain or external influence and through your increasing defensiveness while riding it has become ingrained in her. For example, you think she might buck, so you tense up, which gives her reason to think there's something she should be worried about, which makes you more nervous and defensive ... lather, rinse, repeat.

What does your trainer say about it? Has s/he gotten on your horse to see if the issue is you or your horse. Oftentimes the horse reflects the rider. If possible, it might be worthwhile to have another person other than you ride her regularly for a few weeks to see if there's any change. Make sure the person uses your tack so you're not changing too many variables at once.

Good luck figuring out what's causing your mare's behavioral problems. I'm not sure where you're located but if all else fails consult a vet who has experience with behavior issues. University hospitals are a good source for finding someone.

--Stacey

   Luna gets 2 lbs  of 11% pelleted feed am and 3 lbs pm along w/ msm, Omega horseshine and the E-Se-Mag. She also gets 1 flake of hay am then turned out all day and 3 flakes of hay pm.  In december we start haying outside also so they get as much as they can finish, usually a good 2 or 3 flakes depending on conditions. If the whether stinks or its vet/farrier day and the horses need to stay in, they get 2 flakes am. 1 flake at noon and 2-3 pm. She is turned out w/ a veteran show hunter TB mare who just ignores her running around in a large acre grass pasture. My place has a very quiet atmosphere. She has gotten a clear vet check up this year, teeth, eyes, legs, everything. My trainer does get on her when she sees me having a problem, Luna behaves the same either way. As for having someone other than me or my trainer on her, I do not think that that would be a very responsible thing for me to do! I have actually had my saddle checked, an old crosby prix de nations-the good one and there are no problems there, and i use a fleeceworks pad. As for me, I think I am a pretty experienced rider as far as OTTBs and baby's go  as they are all that i train/show/ride for the last 15 years so I hopefully am not the cause of her problems. I think I have gotten pretty good at being calm and cool in the face of babies! As in  when we went on her first trail ride, I let her go on a loose rein eventually as we came around to the hayfield, something spooked her, she reared, I lost the reins and she takes off like a goon through the neighbor's hay, i quickly got the reins back, got her to circle and haphazardly walk the rest of the way home! All the while singing Boston "More than a Feeling" :)

Ultimately money is an issue so whatever i can do for her has to be in budget. I do have a Chiropractor coming out this week...merry christmas luna....

 Has she had a visit from her Christmas present yet?  (ETA:  I just saw your last post where it said the chiro is coming out this week - guess I'll have to wait!)  I'm curious if the chiro found anything from the massage therapists note about being sore over her hips.

Is she slightly long in the back?  Maybe she's a bit sore in her loins from some of the work and when she tenses up, she makes that area even worse and more painful.  The unbalanced canter makes me also think of loin weakness and/or problems with hip uneveness.

Since this behaviour also happened suddenly when she turned five, it makes me think something may have changed physically - maybe something with her reproductive system?  Something changed to make her more sensitive, or an ovarian cyst?  If the Christmas present budget allows, I would also have checked by the vet.

Good luck and I hope you can find the problem!

remmer:

Since this behaviour also happened suddenly when she turned five, it makes me think something may have changed physically - maybe something with her reproductive system?  Something changed to make her more sensitive, or an ovarian cyst?  If the Christmas present budget allows, I would also have checked by the vet.

That was the first thing I thought about.  Granulosa Cell Tumors

A GCT may also be suspected if the mare's attitude suddenly changes. For example she may become very "studdy", displaying stallion attitudes and postures, and may become aggressive, and even start to develop the typical stallion cresty neck. This is as a result of the granulosa cell tumor secreting testosterone. Alternatively, she may display continuous estrus ("nymphomania"), or even only very occasional estrus.

Here is a couple of links:

http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/5/6536.html

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/board/messages/9306/12412.html

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/GCT.htm

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=174314

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/1998/Mccue.pdf

That is really interesting! Thank you for all the links, they definitely clued me in to some more issues my mare could be having. The Chirpractor comes out tonight, good thing is that if he doesn't think he can help he won't charge me .  She did get pretty agressive and possessive. For example, no horse or human is allowed near me when I am w/ her. Luna also bosses around her pasture buddy, which at her old barn she was at the bottom of the pecking order w/ the lesson pony. I will have to wait awhile until I can have the vet out though, probably at least another month. I just want my quiet little girl back............

 Great links, amberp! 

From your last description, kbbernie, it sure sounds like that might be the problem.  Let us know what the chiro has to offer!

 Congrats on having an OTTB, and she sounds like she has true potential.  I've trained over 100 OTTBs, working at top sales barns, and have run across a lot of different personalities.  First, a word of comfort - over the years of working babies, I've noticed that many, many horses hit what I call a "teenage angst" phase, normally around 5-6 years old.  So, there is that, but they should not be so nasty. While it sounds like you've had experience with OTTBs, have you done the training yourself on most of them?   I wanted to ask - what experience does your trainer have with OTTBs?  I note that when she was being good, your main issue was her canter not being balanced.  Later you mention your trainer has you sitting so deep, in "the power position."  I think this may be the root cause for your mare's anger at being worked. It's a common mistake to try to collect the canter, or any gait, by sitting down too much on the horse's back.  The mechanics of collection and balance under saddle involve engaging the butt, then the back muscles develop and come UP to you (you don't go down to the horse's back), and finally they come onto the bit, which helps develop the back even more.  Sitting down on an unbalanced horse just hollows their back more - they can't carry the rider, and sitting down just puts pressure and inverts them.  Plus, if she is cold-backed at all, or at all sensitive, a "hot seat" will drive her insane.  I would suggest consulting a trainer with more experience with Thoroughbreds than warmbloods, which can be hard to find!  But driving with the seat is a common problem.  I worked many young racehorses by "hovering" in a balanced half seat - I didn't fight the little bucks, but just kept them going forward with my legs.  Eventually they paid attention to the job and stopped bucking.  If they were EVIL bucks, then I would turn sharply and then go forward, zigzagging around if needed.  

Without meeting the horse, it's hard to address every resistance she has but the only option is to go back to the beginning, and get her happily moving forward - forget any "framing."  I think you may have done this too fast, as another post noted, and without the proper muscle development, and created her frustration - it takes a lot of just forward, then true long and low for a few months, to get them truly collected.  I suspect your mare was inverted, not collected - pulled together from front to back.  I may be off, so please, no offense, but the degree of her anger and the comments on the "power seat" make me suspect this is the root of the problem.  The rearing is terrible, so how do you handle her rearing in hand?  Do you pull down on the chain/lead to correct it?  I would suggest stepping back and driving her forward - lunging immediately so that she can't rear.  Get back and drive her forward, but watch out she doesn't kick at you!  Just get mad, and drive her forward, and when her mind is off the rear, relax and walk on like nothing happened.  I believe driving forward is the BEST punishment, in almost any situation - in hand or under saddle.  Pulling on the lead makes them want to pull back and fight you, but going forward directs that anger into something productive and doesn't make them want to FIGHT their handler.  She's having a fight-or-flight reaction, so you need to make sure it's "flight" that you control, not fight.  

As far as the attention issues (looking at soccer kids), again, working on forward will help again.  Just get her back to a relaxed body, undoing the anger and tension she's built up.  And don't feel like you are giving up if you get an experienced OTTB rider to work her.  Even an exercise rider from the track would be awesome - they are used to dealing with hyper horses, and don't think about framing up and stay light on the back.

I want to give an example from the last sales barn I rode for.  This barn was the source of Georgina Bloomberg's medal horse, Diplomat, and sold nice horses to many famous trainers.  The owner knew how to pick amazing prospects, and if they arrived sweet, they might have a moment of resistance - as they gained weight or realized they'd been signed up for the work program and wanted to renegotiate.  But in my 10 years of riding babies (10 years prior to that of lessons, showing, etc), there was NEVER a major personality change without a physical illness/injury, or the rider pushing them to collect in the WRONG way.  And this is common!  There was a competitive Grand Prix dressage rider that got prospects from this barn, and helped with training the nice warmbloods. This rider/trainer would put horses in side reins in stalls, to get them to "give at the poll" and arch their necks.  There's nothing wrong with giving at the poll, but tying them up in the stall, with NO forward momentum, is fundamentally wrong.  But it's a common mistake of even "top" riders who are lucky most of the warmbloods tolerate this stuff.  Well, this rider had major problems with one of the young warmbloods.  I had just moved to the area and started working there, and the owner told me not to ride him, he reared and was going to a cowboy (not a mean one, a skilled one).  A month later, she told me the cowboy had never had a problem - didn't know what the problem was.  I know it was the rider being too in his face, and demanding collection without building the muscles correctly to do the job.  

The other challenge you will have is not riding too defensively. With young horses, particularly TBs, you have to forgive and forget immediately!  You'll feel bipolar, correcting stuff - either going really forward or turning sharply - not a correct turn - this is punishment, so let the shoulder bulge, hind end swing, whatever, just haul on one rein and take the nose the butt, letting the other rein go as loose as needed.  But once they give up the fight, be done and be happy-go-lucky.  This takes timing and skill - knowing what and when to correct, and when to reward.  Again, a trainer or experienced TB rider might be helpful.  I think a skilled Western rider might be of help too - one that knows to move the horse from behind but not hang on the face.  

But after all - it is NOT worth getting hurt.  I've ridden over 300 horses in my 21 years of riding, and I've run across three that I will always believe were mentally ill.  There are so many ex-racehorses slaughtered each year, that if she's psycho, let her go.  But I'd really think about not sitting deep - it will only piss her off, and see about getting help from an experience TB person, not a warmblood-focused person.  It sounds like you've had good fortune with many OTTBs, so I'd try to go back to square one, and check into the health issues other mentioned.  But at age 5, she's about the age many adults begin to display mental illness, and mental illnesses like bipolar and schizophrenia can just happen suddenly - the person has a "break" and is completely different.  So, with your experience, I'd use your judgment, and realize if she is insane, there are many more good OTTBs that need good homes.  Good luck - I hope your girl comes back around for you!!!   

The chiro  was super informative. Luna had 8 ribs out on the right, 6 on the left, her left poll was out, sore neck and sore withers. He got everything back into place and did laser therapy on  acupuncture points and the extra sore points on her ribs, There were 2 ribs on her right that were very bad that kept twisting back  because the muscle memory was so strong but he got them back. She behaved very well, only kicked out 3 times. At least 2 x as he was working on her ribs she creaked and cracked, sounded like stepping on m&ms w/ your boots, he said they never make a noise unless it is pretty out of whack. He said because the muscle memory was so strong that the ribs have been out for over  a year, stemming from when she was on the track(worked too hard too young..she;s a late june baby) and other ribs would twist to compensate  for others and so on.  So he said after a ride or 2 when she realizes she isn't in pain any more, she should pick up her leads, be less cranky and all in all be a happier horse! He also said that the 2 ribs that were the worse will most likely need put back in in a month or so  as the muscles adjust but all in all she should be good to go. The biggest difference i noticed today was that she did not once try to bite me...WOO! and All i did today was lunge her (I never use side reins or artifical devices, i do not believe in "chin to neck or nose to the ground" head sets) to see her reactions and besides the normal few bucks, there was no spooking and she listened to everything that I asked her. I am cautiously optimistic and will ride her on Thursday. I don't know if it is just me or what but I think she has a more content look in her big brown eyes. We shall seeeeeeee.....

I really appreciate all the advice, keep it coming! But please do not question my riding/caring abilities and qualifications. My trainer has been training OTTBs for over 30 years and i call her my "horsey" mom and I have full trust in her ability to give me the right advice.

I try to post an update after our ride!  

 I am thrilled there is more proof of the medical utility of chiropractic and acupuncture help!  This thread teaches a great lesson for anyone reading it.  For any horse behaving badly, the first question should always be medical - horses are not normally aggressive, so pain, hormones, etc, must always be the first thought.  But if that is completely ruled out, all riders, trainers - horsemen - simply must take an honest look at themselves and realize that all of us are still learning.  PH just had an article on the Grand Prix dressage horse, Succes, who was difficult and took innovation for his rider to figure out an approach that worked for that horse.  I believe they just won the Grand Prix featured in Nancy Jaffer's blog.  I, for one, would be incredibly bored with this sport if I thought I'd run across every dilemma and it's solution.  That's why these blogs are so great.  I don't always agree with the input, but it adds to the options I can try and then if I disagree, fine, but I've had to review my training process and decide again if it's right or wrong.  Finally, if the horse's physical health and rider/trainer approach are ruled out, there are a few horses in the world with mental illness, and I think it's an underdiscussed issue.  

However, I'm deeply curious - as a member of the medical community, did the chiropractor say why the issues from the track took over a year to present?  Looking back, were there signs of pain earlier, or did she just hit a point and explode?  Based on this experience, would you recommend a chiropractic visit for any new OTTB, as part of the letdown period?  

 That's GREAT news!  In a way, I was hoping the chiro wouldn't find anything, so you could save your money for the vet check, BUT....  I'm so glad he was able to help.  Poor pony, no wonder she was grumpy.

Good luck with your ride on Thursday and I hope she's had the "miracle cure"!

Ellalilie2:

However, I'm deeply curious - as a member of the medical community, did the chiropractor say why the issues from the track took over a year to present?  Looking back, were there signs of pain earlier, or did she just hit a point and explode?  Based on this experience, would you recommend a chiropractic visit for any new OTTB, as part of the letdown period?

I'm a veterinarian with a racetrack and sport horse practice, which includes integrated therapy (chiro, acup etc).  Remarkably, racehorses are the best taken care of horses on the planet.  Many if not most have regular chiropractic care.  I think the mare's problems most likely resulted from the career change.  Racing uses one set of muscles, jumping/showing/going on the bit use different ones.  All horses undergoing a career change, or even starting back in work after a vacation should have regular veterinary with integrated therapy checkups.