Hi

l would like to know
What is Rollkur?

Rollkur is a method by which the horse is trained in excessive flexion and extremely deep. It has been used by many top level riders, including Olympians, but is frowned upon by most Dressage riders. I will look through my info tonight to find an article I received a while back - but will have to load a program to do so.

It has been shown that rollkur inhibits the shoulder and locks the neck muscles so it is contrary to classical dressage training. In my opinion is merely a rider's method to physically dominate the horse and force the horse into posture that is in constraint.

I couldn't find that article, I think it was from the classical dressage riding site. It basically showed all of the muscles and joints and everything that was effected, most of the conclusions were that it impeded true movement and was not good for the horse. It also talked about the ideals of dressage and the goals of classical training and the way this method kind of undercuts classical training. The artical kinda also said that the reason there is a standardized method and training standard is because it has been time tested and proven to be good for the horse. Lendon Gray was not too impressed by it when questioned about it at a forum and other top level riders from Europe and the US are not in favor of it. But as I stated before some Olympians have used it and have been rewarded. It has sparked a debate of whether a horse is being judged on its performance or on its training.

While I can not judge the merits of Rollkur myself... the reason you can not find that Classical Dressage site is that the author is in litigation for "defaming" the riders (some of them Olympic champions) for their training technique.
If you google "Dressage" there are several BBs out there which can help you learn more about Rollkur.
Also note that the horses are ridden with their noses very tight- almost to their chests, etc... but only for training... they are not ridden for their test this way. I think (and have been wrong before) that the theory is that they ride in an extreme so that less so (during the test) is then easy for the horse...

which classical site or magazine was this published in?

Just a hint: If you do a Google Images search for "Rollkur" all of the pictures from that site come up. Some of them are horses in Rollkur and some are not, but if you check the second page of images it is very obvious which ones are of horses in a Rollkur position.

Exactly, that's why it's a debate. The people who use Rollkur say they ride their test the same as everyone else and the judge should only judge the test. The people who are against it are saying it is "abuse" (not enough to prosecute, just enough to condemn the trainers to keep them from getting clients) and the USDF and other international groups should not allow that method to be ridden [at shows (warm-up)].

Oh, and the article I had was off the web originally, it was a published article that was e-mailed to me, it somehow got erased I fear.

Honestly, some horses are so hot and forward that the only way to ride them and not get killed is to start in a Rollkur, as was admitted by the person who sent me the article. I'm not saying the Rollkur should be used on all horses all the time, just in special instances, just like a draw rein on a particular horse once every other blue moon also works. JMO though. But at the same time I have never used it (except one ride when my horse was being SOOO bad and bucking and I just had to get him forward and his neck was getting shorter and shorter and I just got him into that really deep, nose in chest for a few laps, then went back to western pleasure... but this was a long time ago too!)

Katie

*edited for a typo*

Katieel -t me put my flame suit on here... ok, I agree with you. Before I knew what it was I probably rode Yo like this alot when I first started him- fresh off the track and rarin' to go. It probably saved my butt on many occasions... does that make it right... not necessarily, but it was right for me at the time.
I,as well as the jury, am still out on this one.
What I really disliked about the website from where you got the article was that rather than highlight riders who do it "right" the author chose to show those who use Rollkur, and sort of bring them down. I feel a large part of horsemanship (which involves showing) is sportsmanship... and I found the sites use of famous riders images to be very unsportsman-like. IMO a photo only shows a moment in time... whether the horses continued in this frame is debateable.

Oh, I think I know what website you're talking about. I agree that is it better to do postive reinforcement than negative.

And the reason I can't find the article was it was from over a year ago, e-mailed to me. The site is still there *I think* it's this one, http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/index.html - if it is, it has undergone major re-formatting since I was last there (last December). But it has the same information and writing style, and it is very familiar. I think some additions have been made, so I will continue to look for the website I remember going to, I know it was European.

It wasn't an article that was saying the people were terrible, it just laid out both sides, had independent physiologists (I think those are the people who look at muscle and bone structure in motion) giving opinions on what was happening in the horse's body, the wear and tear on the horse's joints and muscles. They even had interviews with people who still actively use Rollkur, giving benefits of the training program. Which the article didn't protest. But the writer did draw their opinion at the end of the article, not as this is right, and they are wrong, but in a "my experience has led me to believe..." kind of way.

And I totally agree that pictures can be very misleading - my friend has one where it appears that he is walking on water, the truth, he was walking off of the side of the pool into it (like doing a dead's man drop) while his mother took a one-in-a-million type shot! I even have pictures where it seems my horse is moving in a frame and nicely (it is truly debateable that he continued in that manner! ).

Oh, and what does flame suit mean? I'm new to this!

OMG, some of those Google images that rollkur pulls up look SO PAINFUL!!

You put on your flame suit when you are about to say something that others will disagree with and "flame you" for...

We're possibly talking about 2 different sites.. the one I saw had LOTS of photos with disparaging remarks under them... which is what I found offensive ande immediately made me question what this persons ultimate goal was- to discuss Rollkur- or to bring down top riders based on photos of "moments".
I also talked to my instr this weekend about Rollkur. She is a very classically trained person, and starts all horses off with the goal of relaxation ( I really respect and admire her training and riding)... there is no rushing the levels in her barn! None of the boarders go to shows yet- and most have been with her 3 years or more! Anyway, she basically agreed with what I said about sportsmanship... and also commented that her training in Germany included Rollkur... but that it had a purpose, etc and was not a means to an end. Liken it to the drawreins debate. Are drawreins bad? Depends on the rider/trainer using them.

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up
I think we have the same viewpoint!
Oh, and I love when trainers don't rush, I'm a slow person myself!

I have to applaud you both for your great comments on RK.
It has been a flaming topic on other boards and caused lots of disagreement and open fighting. Yosmom- great wisdom and I feel very comfortable here- as you and Katie seem to have a reasonable approach to this- rather than throwing it overboard- right away and without research.
There is in my opinion good deep riding for a purpose - it serves to relax the topline, engage the hindquarters and overall get the horse focussed.
There are many BBs where the more liberal attitude towards this topic is a big NONO- and the 'classical trainers' have the most narrow minded views, even though the REALLY informed classical trainers know that this is not new- it is Old News and has been used 100 years ago as well...and with success. What everyone seems to miss is the horse itself- is it happy- is it relaxed, is it moving well, does it take any harm from it or muscle up nicely...

I thought you all would want to know that the FEI is taking action regarding the practice of Rollkur. Here is a memo from the FEI on a meeting scheduled to discuss it:

The FEI Veterinary Committee and Dressage Committee have received several questions with regard to the issue of training methods in Dressage, specifically referring to overbending during the warm-up.
The use of overbending (Rollkur) in the warm-up for Dressage is a controversial issue for the FEI.
The Dressage and Veterinary Committees are aware of the importance of this matter and are undertaking a detailed review of the practice and any possible implications for horse welfare.
This review will be followed up by a Workshop with invited participants at the next FEI Veterinary Committee meeting in Lausanne on January 31, 2006. The discussions at this meeting will involve veterinarians, scientists, riders, trainers and officials and will consider the future use of this practice in FEI competitions.

The official FEI web site is www.horsesport.org