Since our native soil is clay, it drains poorly.  I was wondering if having a concrete floor with a drain in it (in the center?) covered in some sort of permeable mat would work?  Many of the permeable mats I've been reading about are very thin, and so would provide no cushioning to the legs and joints.  Any suggestions???

Where in SoCal are you?  I lived in Riverside County for several years and all we had was sand. 

 I know there were two kinds of sand and one of them would "roll over" in a hazardous way when it got soaked with rain.

 What you're asking requires a professional answer from someone in your specific area.  Flooring in a barn that is going to last the rest of your life is not something you want to mess up with "internet answers" :) 

My best thought is contact your nearest Ag person and let them help you.   You could also contact barn builders in your area.

 I don't know where in SoCal you are but Francisco Pipe (FCP), in Wildomar, CA, built my loafing shed back in 1998.

 At that time, I can say they were very honest, professional and gave this East Coast person the best advice on what, where, and how to build that little loafing shed.

http://www.fcpbuildings.com/

 Hope this helps:)

We built my 4-stall barn with concrete over natural sand/gravel. The stalls have rubber mat floors over the concrete--the mats are about 1" thick--but the horses never stand on the mats alone. The mats are covered, in turn, with pelleted bedding, 6" thick when just put in and down to 3" when ready for more bedding. The concrete also covers the aisleway, with 2x6s at the foot of the doors to keep the bedding in. 

@walkinthewalk and Megan: Thank you so much for the responses!

I'm in the San Diego area.  I've actually ridden in that wonderful Riverside sand, and if my new barn had that sort of drainage, I wouldn't have to worry so much.  However, I believe I'm looking at clay in the worstcase scenario, and it's what I'm familiar with since it's what my horses have been boarded on for the last 18 years.  I completely agree that contacting a local expert is the best way to go; I just want to be educated when I go into the design phase, which is why I'm asking.

For example: My mare has always been very hard on her stall, even as a yearling.  She's in a box stall with a run.  The ground is pure, heavy-duty clay, and when it rains, it's a sucking bog pit that makes me worry about her tendons (thankfully, she's never pulled a shoe).  When it doesn't rain, her normal walks and spins in her "yard" create an even more compressed trail, and it's one heck of a challenge to keep the level up to normal.  Then, she has to pee in the nice fluffy shavings in her stall (of course)...and since the ground doesn't drain, we go through a lot of shavings...and what's left in the stall is still squishy and ammonia-y.

Since this is going to be my barn, and we're starting from scratch, I would like to hear what's worked for others in the same situation. Shavings over mats over concrete with drains was my original thought, but I don't know if it would work or if it's practical. As I said, I have many years of experience with clay floor.  I've showed in New Mexico where the stalls have wonderful sand floors.  I've also seen shavings over concrete at Industry Hills many years ago, and besides the concrete being so hard, even with a lot of shavings, I will never forget watching horses' shoes kick up sparks against the concrete floor, and thinking how easy it would be for the shavings to ignite. I'm worried about the maintenance required with rubber mats over concrete: Having to pull the mats out several times a year to hose off the concrete, and the amount of shavings needed to soak up so many gallons of daily urine.

It doesn't seem like an easy problem, is it?

...and @Megan: What a GREAT pic!

Here's a major tip: dump the shavings for pelleted bedding. The pelleted bedding is much, much more absorbent than shavings, fluffs easily, and in the long run less expensive b/c you use much less. They're easier to clean, too. When I throw in a new bag I sprinkle the pellets with a bit of water--you'll learn how much YOU need--and the pellets expand into sawdust. Then I separate the manure from the sawdust with a fine-tined fork, and take out all of the "pancakes" of urine-soaked bedding. I can get virtually all of the urine, much more than you can get out of the shavings, with less waste. I only throw in a new bag of bedding every 3-5 days, depending upon how messy a particular mare is. When they're in season they pee a LOT, and I have 3 mares and 2 jennies.

I see your dilemma

 Do you get a lot of earthquakes or aftershocks in your area?

 If so I'm wondering, if you decide on cement, if you would have to reinforce the cement so it wouldn't crack or start to break every time there's a shaker.

I don't know how that's done but there's enough homes in that area on slabs that surely someone has an answer and how much extra $$$ that would be

@Megan: Thanks so much for that input!  ...and, no, I have not tried the pellets.  If I can find some locally, maybe I'll try that now, while my horses are still boarded, to see how that works.  ...and if it does, maybe that will answer many of my questions!  :)

 @walkinthewalk: No, we're not in as earthquakey an area as Riverside, Orange, or LA Counties, so my concern with concrete is more from the long-term horse maintenance perspective, rather than concrete cracking / durability.

I'm surprised that your boarding barn does not use the pelleted bedding already. All of the barns around western WA--where I am--use it, from backyard barns to high-end, expensive stables. If your barn workers do not know how to use the pellets, tell them to use 5-6 bags to cover a 12x12 stall for the first time, sprinkle the pellets with water to get them to expand, then add one bag of new pellets when needed.

@Megan: Since your last postings, I did some research on pelleted bedding, and watched several videos as well.  Question: Is the different between the pelleted bedding and shavings the fineness of the particles?  In other words, is it sawdust versus shavings?  My confusion stems from both beddings being made of the same basic material (pine wood), so why so much better performance with one versus the other?  No, none of the barns I've boarded at over the last 30 years have ever used pelleted bedding.  If I can find them locally, I still want to try them.  Does the water fluff up some of the pellets and leave some of the other pellets in pelleted form to soak up moisture?  One last question: Since my horses are on clay ground that doesn't drain well, could I use the pelleted bedding to augment the shavings, to get both the loft from the shavings as well as the moisture-absorption from the pellets?

Sorry to bend your ear with so much questions!  I really appreciate the info!  :)

fyi--if you can't buy pellets packaged for animal bedding at a pet shop or feed store, it's the same pellets you buy to use in a pellet stove.  where i live, we buy our pellets at a building store like home depot.  the packages we get have the labelling for pellet stoves on one side and the labelling for pet bedding on the other side.  of course at the store they are placed with the stove label showing.

i also use the pellets the same way in my cat's litter box (moisten and fluff).....cheap, cheap, cheap!!

dimitriu:

Question: Is the different between the pelleted bedding and shavings the fineness of the particles?  In other words, is it sawdust versus shavings?  My confusion stems from both beddings being made of the same basic material (pine wood), so why so much better performance with one versus the other?

Yes, all of the videos I watched last night used water in the bags of pellets, and in the demonstrations you could see them expand greatly.  One video said that it took about two hours to fully expand a bag of pellets using cold water, or about 20 minutes using warm.  One of the videos also mentioned that they're used in stoves, although the narrator said that if the packaging was labeled horse bedding, that it was more expensive than the stove pellets.  The narrator went on to say that she didn't know if there was any difference in the two products.

I was just thinking that in the time I have left to board, that I could use a bit of the dry pellets in the pee holes in the stall to soak up the urine; the rest of the bedding--since it's provided by the ranch management--can stay shavings.  I could also do a separate test with the wetted pellets in one area of the stall so that I can compare them against the regular shavings in the rest of the stall.  In this way, I can see how the product works in the hard-to-keep areas, and that should give me an idea of how economical they would be to use.

One additional question: Many (most?) horses will take at least a mouthful of brand-new shavings (probably since they're four-legged mammalian termites!).  Have you experienced any colic or other digestive issues in the cases where some of the unexpanded pellets were ingested?

Thanks again for all of the answers!  I started this thread in one direction, but you all are opening up many options I had not considered, and I greatly appreciate it!  Keep 'em coming!

I prefer shavings as I can bank them for the older horses. We are able to get a mix of green and dry shavings which proves to be more absorbent than straight green. I do use stall pellets in the areas on my mats where the boys generally do most of their peeing and it really helps. Using both products really does work well.

 

 

dimitriu:

I was just thinking that in the time I have left to board, that I could use a bit of the dry pellets in the pee holes in the stall to soak up the urine; the rest of the bedding--since it's provided by the ranch management--can stay shavings.  I could also do a separate test with the wetted pellets in one area of the stall so that I can compare them against the regular shavings in the rest of the stall.  In this way, I can see how the product works in the hard-to-keep areas, and that should give me an idea of how economical they would be to use.

Does your mare pee the exact same place every time? If she does, then you could satisfy your curiosity either way you mentioned. Otherwise, you'll need to trust me: the pellets are more absorbent AND cheaper in the long run than shavings. The first time you use them you'll wonder why you ever used shavings, they're that good. The urine is virtually gone--depending upon how you clean--and the stall smells much, much better. Your vet will agree: cleaner stall air is better for horse lungs.

dimitriu:

One additional question: Many (most?) horses will take at least a mouthful of brand-new shavings (probably since they're four-legged mammalian termites!).  Have you experienced any colic or other digestive issues in the cases where some of the unexpanded pellets were ingested?

None of my animals have ever eaten any of the pellets OR sawdust. When I tried the pellets made from straw they did eat it, so I discontinued using that kind and went back to the wood pellets.

And like gailforce said, you can use the pellets as kitty litter, too. Much nicer than the clay litter. I have NO cat litter box smell now that I use the pellets.

tunastick:

I prefer shavings as I can bank them for the older horses.