Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
-
-
Cheryletlyri
  - Joined on 01-31-2012
- Willamette Valley, OR
- Foal
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
Okay I live in W. Oregon w/ a capital "C" on clay. Flooding - yearly issue at some point in NW Oregon. In fact moved my horses out of my barn for a week, 2 weeks ago, due to 4 ft of flooding in the driveway, and water rising. So if you are asking about water and stalls and footing, talking to someone who deals w/ it yearly is wise. I built my barn in 2005. Both excavation contractor and building contractor said our building did not need to be elevated beyond it's highest ground contact/elevation. There is a 1% slope naturally on the property so the north end of the barn is about 10" off ground level, south end is at soil level. Even after looking at pictures of high standing water in the area we proposed to build barn and a separate shop on. (the neighbors home downspouts empty onto the property line and we have a stream thru our property so we are downslope) The fall of 2005 it rained 18" in 13 days. My boarder and I dug trenches thru the dirt aisleway to get rid of the water pouring in, and trenches outside to move the standing water away from the barn, shavings area, and attached paddocks. So I have some experience, however unwanted w/ your issues.
First of all my stalls and paddocks stayed dry on both occasions (2 wks ago and 2005). The stalls have 6 inches of packed 3/4minus gravel in them (packing brings it to about 4") w/ stall mats over the top. The commercial barn I boarded in for 15 yrs was set up this way also, I don't know many boarding facilities in the Willamette Valley that don't do this due to the water issues. After the first year you will probably have to add some finer gravel to take out dips created by pattern movement by the horses. And occasionally (after 5-10 yrs) folks will add lime under stall mats after allowing them to air out on a hot summer day, particularly for heavy pee-ers. My lusitano mare is one of those and I have yet to need to do this. I lived in Ireland for 5 yrs and their stalls are cement based. Their typical stall is bedded w/ 12" of packed shavings and only manure is typically pulled out daily, stalls are emptied once a month and replaced w/ shavings. This keeps horses from suffering from the pain of daily standing on cement. They also have "american style barns" and the one I was in had a cement floor and only stall mats in them w/ v. little shavings - these horses had issues w/ sore legs/backs from standing on cement ( I used to work in a warehouse packing boxes for 3 months each summer in college w/ only a thin mat to separate me from the floor - my back and pelvis would ache at the end of the summer - so I wouldn't do that to my horses.) That Irish facility is known for Grand Prix Jumpers and their new facility had cement floors, but they put in the "pillow type stall flooring" that had been out in the US for a few years. I do not know how this did.
My paddocks are dug out slightly (4-6") by an excavator of your choice and large rock put in, packed sort of by vehicular traffic of some sort - a asume the dump truck, then highway cloth is put down (this is like landscape cloth but heavier duty and is used under road beds- it doesn't allow the large rock to migrate up or the gravel to migrate down giving you drainage, horses typically can't dig thru it) then 6" of 3/4 minus gravel is put down then packed also by a large roller (the kind you drive and it often has a vibration system attached). Here is where the folks in this area deviate depending on needs/wants. I use 100% cedar hogsfuel to top my paddocks (not the general run of the mill hogsfuel that can have all sorts of stuff in it like nails/screws/rubber/cloth) - this is livestock bedding, the horses do occasionally eat it if not fed enough or craving grazing time - never had a problem w/ colic, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't; I add a truckload each fall. Others use sand, others use loose gravel, and others use pea gravel or turkey grit (depending on shoes vs shoeless horses - that is another issue) The girlfriend who took my horses and my boarders horses in 2 wks ago used to use sand, until her lipizzan mare colicked on eating the sand. She now has the pea gravel and the horses leave it alone. It is extremely deep, like 6-8" or slightly more. This all depends on your needs and environment. It will need to be amended periodically, depending on your needs/activity of your horses. A 4x4 board at the paddock door keeps the paddock bedding out and the stall stuff in.
As for pellet vs shavings vs sawdust. Have used all three in the boarding barn and my place. I prefer sawdust w/ pellets for my mare that pees a lot. The pellets are placed as a base in her peeing area then sawdust on top, to help corral the urine in the stall so it doesn't spread as badly. Shavings don't do much and don't absorb well compared to the other two, and they are harder to pick. Sawdust for my other stalls is the choice for me as it is cheaper than pellets in the long run here where access to wood products is pretty easy. The barn I was at 2 weeks ago uses only pellets, slightly wetted in a wheelbarrow then placed in the stall. When broken down they are very, very fine so in the summer w/ the winds we have (stall doors to paddocks always open 24/7 except during high wind of 25 mph+) they fly out and don't stay put. Her horses are closed in at night and during bad weather so if makes it easier, mine aren't. Also we have pellet manufacturers close by, some "fire" pellets have added chemicals to them or wax to get them to mold or burn better/hotter, watch out when buying non animal bedding pellets. Some bedding pellets smell like wet dogs when softened, others have Zeolites added that help w/ composting and it doesn't smell. You will need to shop around.
Sorry this was so, so long - but this is all info you really need to know. You won't get a second chance to "do it right" at this location most likely. One other thing. My barn has a "porch over the paddock doors so the rain doesn't come in and there is dry material next to the barn - also keep sun off them and still allows them outside where they prefer to be. I have mats up against the foundation of my barn on the outside too, to prevent digging and dragging in the paddock footing. And I have swales around the barn/paddocks to keep the water moving away from my buildings - the french drains put in, in '05 overflowed due to so much water at one time (15" in 4 days, plus slush melting in the hills) 2 wks ago, that is why my barn aisle was soaked.
Good reference is King County (WA state) Horses and Mud called Horses for Clean Water .com. I've heard this talk several times since 2001 - this gal has spent the time and gotten grants nationally to "get it right"
Good luck
|
|
-
-
-
48northfarm
  - Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
Here's an idea. Take the shavings out of your mare's stall and replace them with 6 bags of the pelleted bedding. Squirt them down. That's the way to start a stall. You'll get a few days to watch it--you might want to clean the stall yourself to see how easy it is--and when you need more bedding, put the shavings back in, a wheelbarrow's-worth at a time. Eventually you'd be back to all shavings, and had a chance to see how the pellets do vs pellets/shavings vs shavings.
Megan
 |
"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
Anonymous |
|
|
-
-
dimitriu
- Joined on 01-29-2012
- Foal
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
Good morning, and so sorry I haven't responded sooner! @Megan: I spoke with my vet a couple of days ago, and she says that there are barns in the area that do use the pelleted bedding. She said she, personally, doesn't have experience with it (she hasn't had her own horses in a few years now), but she said that her clients that use it also report the same as you: That it's more absorbant. We had a discussion about bedding and flooring, and interestingly, we talked about a lot of the things that have been discussed on this thread. So...I'm feeling better that at least I'm thinking in the right direction. On your recommendation I'm still going to do at least the spot pellet test, and if I get the chance, the full stall test.  @cheryletlyri: THANK YOU for taking the time to share in detail your experiences! You brought up a lot of really excellent points that pertain to the property. It is fairly level, and there are many trees on it. Unfortunately, many of those trees have been poorly maintained and are, therefore, a liability, and so need to be removed. The positive outcome is that that permits the grading of the property to whatever I need, and so I was very interested in the grading and heights that you provided. We don't get the quantities of water here that you do, but if I can make use of your experience, that just about guarantees a better result.  You may have already covered this in your post, which I will definitely review as I get closer to "breaking ground, but here are some of the things I'm not clear about: How do you deal with building the French drains if your soil is heavy clay? In other words, how big (dimensions?) of a leach field did you have to create? How far away from the barn? How deep and how thick? How much lower than the level of the barn floor? ...and also: What does the top of the leach field look like? In other words, did you leave it open gravel, or were you able to plant over it? All: I just found out that the soil is officially "sandy clay", which is a heck of a lot better soil than what I have been dealing with in my current home, where in my tiny yard I produce flowers and edibles, and it's also much different than the heavy clay on which I board my horses. So...I may not have the terribly oppressive clay drainage problems with the new place as I have had to deal with currently, but I still want to do this "right", so investigation now--while I have the time to plan!--is critical to me. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to all that are participating in this thread! Slightly different topic: Do you think that stall doors are "required"? In my area we have little rain and a lot of relatively dry heat. In all the years my horses have been in box stalls with runs, I can't remember using a door or other barrier to keep my horses inside. The box stalls have openings that are the usual half-stall wall, half doorway. A couple of the horses in the barn row have had most of the wall part removed, so that the "doorway" encompasses most of the entrance to the run. It seems to work great for them, and I'm wondering if I should mimic the same structure. Thoughts? (Oh, and yes: They all have a few feet of overhang on the stall that shades a little bit of the run.) Happy Sunday, everyone!
|
|
-
-
48northfarm
- Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
My barn is 4 stalls with 12'x40' paddocks (runs) for each stall. Of course, there are doors from the stall into the aisleway, but we never got around to making doors from the stall into the paddocks. But we've never needed them, except when I had to keep Athene in her stall for a day with ice boots on after she got out and gorged on grass all night before I found her. Rather than building a Dutch door--what I envisioned for the barn, but hard to build--we just put some eye-screws on the door jamb and hung one of those web stall guards. When Athene looked ready to jump over the stall guard--egad!--we just screwed a 4x8 sheet of plywood over the door for the 12 hrs she needed to wear the ice boots. Easy on, easy off.
I'd still like the look of Dutch doors between the stall and paddock, but they are not really needed so they'll have a low priority on the TO-DO list. But, doors to the feed room are a good idea so that no wandering horses can get into the hay, if it's stored there as recommended, rather than above the stalls in a loft. I don't know why Athene did not go to the hay when she got out--maybe she did--but I guess the grass was tastier. NOW I double-check the door latches before I left the barn after feeding. :(
Megan
|
"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
Anonymous |
|
|
-
-
Cheryletlyri
- Joined on 01-31-2012
- Willamette Valley, OR
- Foal
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
The clay we discovered as we built all the out buildings was only about 12 - 24" deep in places, and what is under it is wonderful dirt. So it does drain if not overloaded. The French drains are sloped, at the high end of the property and beginning of the drains it is only about 10" (?) down, to where it joins into the pipes from the downspouts on the shop (before the barn which attaches into the same system and empties into the creek on our property) At that pipe it is about 24" down where it all comes together, length of french drain may be 300ft total.
The drain is that black corrugated plastic pipe w/ a "sock" over it, it lays on about 4 " of open run gravel (no fines) The sock is supposed to keep stuff from getting in. On top is larger open stone 4-10" deep w/ no fines. Due to mowing/working fields we can drive over it w/ the tractor perpendicular to the drain w/out damaging it, but not drive over it following it as it will crush the pipe due to the weight of the tractor or truck.
We could cover the rock w/ highway cloth (while it was still sort of new and a bit of a scar) and put dirt over it (how much - don't know) and seed it to make it more presentable in the landscaping around my arena and between the barn and the shop where my horses don't go. The grass then grows up thru the highway cloth on either side of the drain and pins it down. I'm not sure if I want my horses on it tho' as they can/could be pretty dynamic. If it wasn't buried deeply, I don't think I would go there in a pasture setting; instead I would do swales, much easier to maintain/clean/divert water. The grass growing in it would help sift out sand/dirt.... but not sure how much grass you guys would have in the summer tho'. Was in Rancho Bernardo a couple summers ago, and if it wasn't irrigated it didn't stay green....
If I chose to do the french drains thru the pastures and ending in the fields, I would put a big pile of large rocks around the end where it leads to and pops out of the soil, allowing drainage out of the pipe, hopefully nothing would go in.... (ahh rats and skunks seem to like this, so on 12" drainage pipes in the field connecting a swale thru a berm, we have covered the ends w/ galvanized mesh and wired it to the pipes) Horse tend to leave large rocks alone, unless really, really bored or hungry.
|
|
-
-
Cheryletlyri
- Joined on 01-31-2012
- Willamette Valley, OR
- Foal
|
Re: Building a New Barn in SoCal...Need Stall Flooring Advice
Sorry - could only remember the one thought about French Drains. As for the stall doors - needed or not. Depends on your weather - our rain goes horizontal at times and wind gusts can get up 50mph in severe storms. I like my doors to keep both out. And we have an occasional cougar in the area, so to bring horses in and shut them is really nice. My Lusitano mare had colic surgery in '08, when we brought her home she pined (moved spun reared) for the first 2 wks w/ just a chain across the paddock doorway, until we shut the door - much better healing and quieter horse. When we opened it back up she was much more sedate and willing to just hold her head out to see her neighbor and us if we were in the yard and vice versa.
As for the way to keep them in or out - Dutch doors were all the rage in Ireland, but many did not have hefty enough hinges to hold them up. Horses would rest their bumms or necks on them and break down the hinges. The choice there was galvanized chain across the openings or more preferably chain w/ the rubber embedded over the middle of the chain, no mesh/web/material stall fronts. The mesh was an issue if a horse went to depart it's stall w/ impulsion, and it's front feet were elevated; that it would trap itself in the mesh openings if it's feet went thru, then fall etc. I never saw it, but did hear occasional stories..... I chose to use the rubber embedded chain at chest height attached to eye screws and again 6" below it for a bit more of a visual barrier. The other thing you could use is a wire mesh grill at the door if needed starting a little bit below chest height w/ a "V" for the head and neck to go out and stopping at about 6-7' - that was pretty successful in Ireland also. It really just depends on your horses, how quirky they are or aren't, and how impatient they get when held in.
My other thought is that I do attend some shows/clinics and I want my horses to be good citizens. If they don't practice occasionally being stall bound on days I choose, then going to a clinic where they are stuck in is going to be a pain for them and me. Or if they need to go to the hospital - for anything....
Have you thought about what kind of siding you are going to use? People/view side vs horse side?
|
|
-
|
