Worming
Last post 06-24-2012 6:16 AM by RandiSl. 16 replies.
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02-01-2012 7:11 AM
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RandiSl
  - Joined on 01-10-2012
- Foal
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I read the latest article on worming in HJ with some interest! I had just been wondering how much I really needed to worm my horses, given that although it's not a dry lot (there's sage there), there isn't any grass. I've been using Strongid C2X for many years now -- it just makes sense to me to get rid of the worm load daily. My vet seems to think it's a good idea too. I also feed garlic during the summer, which really helps with the bugs, but I've heard it can also act as a vermifuge.
Since my two are at the opposite ends of the spectrum -- baby and elder -- I'd rather be safe than sorry. I also think Fuego is eating Stutz's poop (how in the world do they pick up that habit?) And although I keep the hay areas as clean as possible, the lazy things will poop in their hay, or nearby, and the wind will blow the odd dropping into the hay itself.
I haven't seen HJ mention the daily wormers for some time now, and it seems the last time it was referenced, there was some concern about immunity building up. Any news on this? I do paste worm with Equimax (? -- the one that does tapes) twice a year still too. Not sure that's necessary either. Haven't had to worm my cats for years, and they do go out and hunt the rodents and birds, and all I ever find is stomach and feathers.
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Horse Journal
- Joined on 03-20-2012
- Foal
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We're not into daily deworming, as there's a real documented resistance issue with Strongid. The best recommendation right now is sort of "old fashioned." Reminds me of the tubing days. Practice the best manure management you can. Use fecal egg counts as your guide for what you really need to go after. If that's too expensive and your horses aren't considered high risk due things like to age, traffic, travel, immune problems, etc., consider a twice-yearly, well-timed dose of ivermectin with praziquantel OR moxidectin with praziquantel. If you choose the moxidectin, just be sure you've got a pretty accurate weight for your horse, and your horse isn't very young. Ivermectin is starting to show some signs of resistance (after all, it's only a matter of time for any drug, it seems. Read more at www.horse-journal.com in our February 2012 and March 2012 issues. Cindy Foley, Horse Journal
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luneducheval
  - Joined on 11-30-2005
- Arlington, WA
- Horse of the Year
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 48northfarm:Also, since I do a fecal exam before I deworm--vets can do that, too, but with 5 equines and $30/test it's too much $$$--and if I see no worms I don't deworm. Saves money and time. You can buy a fecal exam kit and an inexpensive microscope for the same amount that it would cost be for one exam by the vet, for me.
48, I would love for you to show me how. when I looked into it, it seemed to require some really pricey slides. Do you just use the same slide for all horses and sterilize between uses?
thanks, janice
Janice
Bread may feed my body, but my horse feeds my soul.
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RandiSl
- Joined on 01-10-2012
- Foal
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Months later, and I just had a fecal egg count done on both horses. Both are in a pasture by themselves and I don't show or otherwise expose them to other horses, or haven't for several years. Stutz had been on Strongid C2X for at least 10 years, Fuego for 1 1/2. I also give them both garlic (less than 1 oz/day) as soon as it stops freezing at night. Both came back with egg counts of zero.
So, I have to wonder about the resistance issue. I do know I've been diligent about making sure my horses eat a full dose every time, and at one meal only. I remember the vet clinic that sponsored Pfizer when this first came out emphasized that resistance could be a problem if the dose wasn't given all at once.
I also now wonder if the garlic isn't the cause of 'good things'. I started feeding it years ago as a bug repellent. My cats and dogs have no ticks and no fleas. My horses don't have welts from being bitten, no ticks, no fleas (and this was true in Virginia as well), although I don't think it repels horse flies. There aren't that many horse flies out here in NW Wyoming anyway (that I notice!).
I'll continue with Strongid, and 2x worming with Equimax or something similar (to get the tapes, if there are any.) I have to wonder about the full story behind resistance issues. Was the product fed correctly? How much contact with other horses? Are all in the pasture being given the same treatment? I also wish there was more on garlic that wasn't just combating theories, and involved real life tests (not overloading to see if that causes problems.) My own experience has been completely positive, and that's empirical evidence gathered over almost 2 decades, some of it with a single horse (Stutz).
Randi
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48northfarm
  - Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
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With your situation, I bet your horses never had worms, even when you were deworming them daily. My vet never said that the resistance problem was due to less-than-strict dosing of the dewomer. Any kind of resistance--even the kind that is causing some problems with drug-resistance in humans--is due to one particularly sturdy bacterium reproducing, and passing on its strong genes.
Please don't contribute to the problem. You may not live anywhere near me, but resistance has to start somewhere, and it will reach me eventually. Ask your vet if you don't believe the facts.
Megan
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"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
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RandiSl
- Joined on 01-10-2012
- Foal
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My vet has continued to support the use of Strongid C2X. I am questioning how the tests were performed that showed resistance -- is that unreasonable? As I said, the vets who first recommended the product did emphasize the need for a complete dose every time, and I've heard that as a reason to continue the use of both equine and human drugs past the point where the patient seems fully recovered -- get rid of everything so there are no resistance issues.
The baby came from a large herd that was being dispersed. He was wormed once with Ivermectin before coming home with me. Does that knock out all worms? They are fed hay for forage, but nibble on the sage in the spring (this is high desert). Admittedly, the conditions are not favorable to worm life -- dry and either hot or cold.
My baby will have to go to another barn for training soon, where he'll be exposed to other larvae sources. So I cannot simply stop worming. I have no objection to stopping the use of Strongid C2x -- hey, I'm all for saving money AND protecting the environment. But I've owned horses for many years, and I've lost a few to colic -- it may be the most common cause of horse death but that doesn't make it easier. The last one to colic was on Strongid C2X, and in fact the vet asked if that was so when she first presented symptoms. No autopsy was done, but I always had trouble getting her to drink lots of water; she was 28; she may have had ulcers -- probably, considering the newer ulcer research. All could have caused the colic, but if she had resistant worms they were not passed to the gelding I still have, and they were together for quite a few years.
Before I stop using a product that has proven quite effective for me, I'd like to know more about the reasons to stop. Please don't just say resistance to the drug and because your vet said so, especially when mine says otherwise.
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walkinthewalk
 - Joined on 11-03-2005
- Middle Tennessee
- Grand Champion
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RandiSl: Before I stop using a product that has proven quite effective for me, I'd like to know more about the reasons to stop. Please don't just say resistance to the drug and because your vet said so, especially when mine says otherwise.
If you Google "resistance to equine wormers", you will get a ton of hits. Look for the credible links that are either .edu (meaning a university paper) or written by vets. TheHorse.com also has several articles on wormer resistance. Sometimes more is less and not the prudent thing to do. Sometimes vets don't always have the spot-on answer. My vet is at the top of his game in my area and is also a whiz-bang leg specialist. He happens to be a vet who agrees on doing fecals first due to worms becoming resistant to wormers. However, even though he's better than most vets regarding metabolic issues, I do all the researching and make most of the decisions regarding the care/feeding of my two metabolic horses. Vets just cannot stay up-to-speed on every single aspect of horse care; it's the owner's responsiblity, many times, to take hold of the reins and research as opposed to doing the bobbing-dog head when their "vet says" -----------------
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Gailforce
  - Joined on 08-23-2010
- BC, Canada
- Under Saddle
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i've read lots of things about worms becoming resistant to worming meds. so, it is a real thing. i also noticed in one of your earlier posts that you said you've never had fleas on your horses. horses do not get fleas. i don't know why, but, i am very glad about that. i am allergic to fleas, so, it used to be a big issue for me when you had to use flea collars and powders on your dogs and cats. we were never completely flea free it seemed. now, a couple drops on the back and we're good. whew!!
Gailforce -- Another old lady rediscovering her inner cowgirl.
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RandiSl
- Joined on 01-10-2012
- Foal
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Hi Gailforce,
I have no quibble with whether resistance is real, I'm simply trying to determine what controls were done to come up with the results. Were a group of owners using Strongid C2X asked to submit manure samples for fecal egg counts? Was a test done on horses with a controlled and proper dosage? Were they all in one pasture? There are so many variables that simply are not answered by just stating that resistance has been found. It's also been found in rotations, in at least one test that I read about -- 3 chemicals used and none of them knocked out the worms. I have zero eggs in the count; I've used Strongid C2X for at least 10 years, with one horse having been on it all during that time; I've added 2 other horses from different backgrounds -- one lost to a broken leg, the other my baby from a large herd with no worming until one dose of Ivermectin before I brought him home; and my mare that I lost to colic 5 years ago, but if she had resistant worms they have not been passed to my gelding, and they were companions for many years, both in pasture in Virginia, and on my desert ranch in Wyoming.
And of course you're right about no fleas on horses, but they do get ticks. I started feeding garlic in Virginia, where ticks were a real problem, especially since my pasture was bordered with a small forest. I questioned continuing it here, but have been told that yes, there are fleas and ticks in this dry climate too (fleas get on cats, but not mine <g>). Been using it for 10-12 years on horses, dogs and cats, and there have been no health issues. It doesn't take that much -- 1/2oz 2x/day for the horses, 1/16th tsp 2x/day for the cats. My dogs were around 40 pounds, and they got 1/4 tsp 2x/day.
I'd really like to stop using Strongid, and once I've used up this bag, I may give it 4-6 weeks then have another FEC done. Still would need something for tapes (Equimax or some such -- I cannot keep the chemicals straight, I look it up each time) 2x/year. But at the same time, I don't usually do things, or change from a program that's worked, just because others have not had the same results. And I'd still really like to know the background!
Randi
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walkinthewalk
- Joined on 11-03-2005
- Middle Tennessee
- Grand Champion
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"I'm simply trying to determine what controls were done to come up with the results." To reiterate, Google "equine resistance to wormers" and look at the credible sources to answer your "why DOES one plus one equal two?" You keep asking the question of all the laymen on this forum yet you don't seem interested in doing the research when someone tries to head you down the right path My humble thought is you should continue to do the daily dewormer on your horses and forget the logic as to why it might not be in the best interest of the horse; even if the scientific world is finding flaws in that theory
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RandiSl
- Joined on 01-10-2012
- Foal
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I saw your reply about researching online last night, after responding to Gailforce. My reiterations are because I keep getting back responses that say 'it causes resistance.' I have been and will continue to research online, and I do thank you for your suggestion to look at the .edu's. And as I said, I will perhaps do some experimenting, although I am loathe to risk my horses's health.
Excuse me, but saying that I'm not interested in doing the research is jumping to a conclusion. Give me a little time, please! Also, there was a response from Cynthia Foley early on, and I appreciate all the work that Horse Journal's staff do and present.
Lastly, I was hoping that some discussion would ensue, not a reiteration of beliefs. Now, I have you gently chastising me for not doing research. Umm, how long did you expect that to take??
Ok, nuff said. I'll spend my time elsewhere, doing the research. Bye now!
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walkinthewalk
- Joined on 11-03-2005
- Middle Tennessee
- Grand Champion
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How long did I expect research to take? A long time. It was your blasting past my thoughts and standing on Gailforce's comments that led me to believe you would rather not research. Unless there's someone on this forum has has actually studied wormer resistance, the Those of us that used to believe in the traditional worming methods and now believe it's best to take fecals to the vet before worming (or buy a kit and do them ourselves), aren't about to change our minds. Folks that board their horses are put in a different situation as they often have to worm according to the Barn Rules - like it or not. It's really one of those subjects that's not worth debating in the true sense of the word. It is worth reading up on if a person keeps asking "why" after folks have offered their "why's" in response. Cheers:)
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