Mouth Open
Last post 06-04-2012 4:22 PM by 48northfarm. 22 replies.
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05-26-2012 9:27 AM
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PicassoReflex
  - Joined on 05-26-2012
- BC, Canada
- Foal
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I am training a horse in dressage for some friends of mine, he has done a lot, from jumping, barrels and Western pleasure. He is a 10 yr old APHA. He is very sweet and soft in his mouth, normally, we had some people come try him out, and they made him tougher in the mouth again as they were riding with their hands instead of their seat. so he is a little tougher but we are working on it to get him back to his normal soft. Now this poor guy had a bad experience a few years ago with a traine, where he was ripped in the mouth and cut his mouth and lips open, since then he has a problem with having his mouth open. Even when he is soft, and you ask for contact gently he opens his mouth and naws and flips his tongue around. we have tried different bits, double jointed, single jointed, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Any suggestions on what we can do to egt him to relax and keep his mouth shut? any bit suggestions we haven't tried yet? Thanks
Reflex - 13yr Reg. Swedish WB by Rubignon
Picasso - 11 months Reg. RPSI Clyde/TB
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48northfarm
  - Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
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Usually, a different bit is not the answer to a problem. My Lusitano mare has a pretty busy mouth, but if I can get her to pay attention to the exercise, not the bit, her mouth gets quiet.
Since your horse has had a bad experience with the bit, I would re-start him with the bridle. Act like he knows nothing about bits, and re-start him like a 4 y.o. that has never had a bridle on. That may take a few days or a few weeks, but don't put any contact on his mouth. When he's ready for contact--it sounds like he opens his mouth as soon as you even touch the reins--try offering it to him like this: Add a touch of pressure on the reins, maybe a few ounces, and when he opens his mouth and begins to move his head--he will--follow his head with your hands and don't increase or decrease the LIGHT contact. Keep the same 2 oz of pressure, regardless of where he goes. When he quiets his mouth--it may be just for a second--instantly release the pressure and praise the heck out of him. Really make a fuss. After a min of praising him, pick up the light contact again. Follow his head until his mouth quiets--follow it for as long as it takes--and drop the pressure instantly when that happens. More praise follows his quiet mouth.
He won't be able to keep a quiet mouth for very long at the beginning, and that's okay. Just do several short, second-long sessions, then quit for the day. As the days pass he will be able to handle keeping his mouth quiet for longer and longer, but don't hurry him.
Once he's able to keep his mouth quiet for most of the time he's holding the light contact, you can start asking him to search for your hand guiding him. Don't try to "get a head-set"--that is riding him front to back--just ask him to follow your hand. When he starts to follow your hand you can put his head wherever you want it. Remember, though, when your hand asks for a face just in front of the vertical, that's hard work for him. Give him plenty of stretch breaks, at least every 5 mins. Megan
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"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
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BoyleHeightsKid
  - Joined on 01-03-2006
- Shanksville, PA
- Competitor
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First thing I would do is have a dentist out to check his mouth. If he has any hooks or ramps it's going to make it very difficult and uncomfortable to flex at the poll and still keep his mouth shut. Make sure to tell the dentist that this horse is being used for dressage so that he/she absolutely makes sure his teeth can slide across each other without causing the horse any discomfort. He could also be out at the poll and a chiropractor can help him with that.
Second, make sure you are keeping a soft consistent contact so he can learn to accept it. By opening his mouth he's trying to evade the contact. It's even more important that you're consistent when he's trying to evade you. If you aren't then he's just learning that if he opens his mouth he can evade you. Remember to ALWAYS keep a straight line from your elbows to his mouth... don't pull back and don't pull down on his mouth. If the head goes up, the hands go up keeping the contact consistent at all times. Eventually (if all things are fine in his mouth) he will soften and give to you. It's very important that you reward even the smallest effort immediately by giving to him and praising him. I have an excellent article written by Dr. Thomas Ritter that explains suppleness and flexion better than any article I've read. The illustrations are excellent and include exercises you can perform on the ground. I also have an article by Hilda Gurney called Good Hands that's also excellent. I can email them to you if you are interested. By keeping up your end of the bargain he will learn to trust you.
Are these different bits you're trying loose rings? Sometimes they don't like when there is too much play in the bit or if the bit is sitting too low in the mouth they will get their tongue over the bit. I would try something like a mullen mouth D or eggbutt. These bits sit quiet in the mouth.
Something like this:
http://www.doversaddlery.com/mullenmouth-eggbutt/p/X1-0180/
Or this:
http://www.doversaddlery.com/happy-mth-k%2fd-pro-shpd-mlln-mth/p/X1-01118/
I'm not sure if the happy mouth bits are dressage legal. Check the rule book first before trying one.
A good rider rides transition to transition, a great rider rides half-halt to half-halt!
~Robert Dover
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Hidden Farm
- Joined on 03-19-2007
- New York State
- Foal
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Go bitless....you'll have a very happy, calm horse who keeps his mouth closed!
Hidden Farm
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BoyleHeightsKid
- Joined on 01-03-2006
- Shanksville, PA
- Competitor
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 Hidden Farm:Go bitless....you'll have a very happy, calm horse who keeps his mouth closed!
Bitless is not legal in dressage.
A good rider rides transition to transition, a great rider rides half-halt to half-halt!
~Robert Dover
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Hidden Farm
- Joined on 03-19-2007
- New York State
- Foal
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I know bitless isn't legal in shows. Have you read all the research that Dr. Cook and other veterinarians have done on what bits do to horses? I own 8 lesson horses of all ages and breeds and all go beautifully in bitless bridles. Horses have a way of being totally submissive and obedient to the point that they ignore discomfort....for the benefit of the rider.
Besides, I thought that collection comes from behind the horse and not from the mouth?????
Hidden Farm
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BoyleHeightsKid
- Joined on 01-03-2006
- Shanksville, PA
- Competitor
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I'm glad your horses do well for you bitless... and you're right the horse is ridden from behind into the bridle. She is training the horse in dressage and by the book, dressage requires a bit. The arguement is that the horse can't be "on the bit" if it doesn't not have a bit in it's mouth.
Of course Dr. Cook is going to say bits are bad... Dr. Cook wants to sell bridles.
Bits do not hurt horses... it's the rough uncompassionate hands behind them that do the damage.
The OP asked a question, we are here to help her, not have a debate on bits v. bitless.
eta: I've been reading the rule book and it seems that happy mouth bits are now legal.
A good rider rides transition to transition, a great rider rides half-halt to half-halt!
~Robert Dover
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48northfarm
- Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
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Hidden Farm: I own 8 lesson horses of all ages and breeds and all go beautifully in bitless bridles.
Boy, if I had lesson horses I'd sure put them in bitless bridles, too. A beginner rider--and often an intermediate rider--does not have educated hands, hence hard hands. Those are the riders that bitless bridles are made for. You can get collection from behind in a bitless bridle, but it is still not legal for competition. Rather than train the horse to go in a bitless, train the rider to have soft hands. Soft hands are the basis of the techniques BHK and I spoke of.
Megan
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"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
Anonymous |
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Hidden Farm
- Joined on 03-19-2007
- New York State
- Foal
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I understand your point about helping because you have to use bits in shows (for now). If it were only Dr. Cook's opinion, I might tend to agree with you...maybe....but there are other vets (not in the retail business) that concur with Dr. Cook's findings. We are trying to convince the "powers that be" (FH, USPC, USEF, AQHA etc) to amend the rules and allow us bitless people to show without bits...it wouldn't take anything away from anyone to allow us that concession, would it? Horses cannot speak so none of us humans will ever know for sure if they are happier with or without a bit...I prefer to air on the side of caution and not use them! My horses seem very happy!
Hidden Farm
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48northfarm
- Joined on 03-01-2009
- Port Townsend, WA
- Horse of the Year
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You seem to have made up your mind, so I'm sure nothing will change it, but there are horses that are extremely happy in bits, even double bridles. Watch them glide around the arena, backs swinging, ears flopping, and you can't tell me that they are not comfortable. If a bit is used well, it has no more effect on the horse than the headstall. Anything we put on a horse's head--bridle, halter, rope, anything--is gong to make the horse feel differently than they would in the wild. Making a bridle bitless does not change that, it's still a bridle. Hence, not "natural".
That's the last of my two cents worth.
Megan
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"The horse you get off is not the horse you got on. It is your job as a rider to ensure that as often as possible, the change is for the better."
Anonymous |
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BoyleHeightsKid
- Joined on 01-03-2006
- Shanksville, PA
- Competitor
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All you have to do is watch Steffen and Ravel(or any horse Steffen rides!) or Andeas and Matinee (RIP beautiful girl).
Boy seeks the bit and if very happy doing so. He's in an HS Dynamic RS Loose Ring http://www.doversaddlery.com/herm-sprenger-dynamic-rs-loose-ring-snaffle-bit/p/X1-010512/?ids=mhkbfx55dwwn4czta1hnifz3 His caveson isn't really as snug as it should be (I can fit all 4 fingers in there) and he doesn't need a flash. If the bit was so uncomfortable that wouldn't be the case.
If the horse has dental issues it's not going to make a bit of difference whether he has a bit in his mouth or not. A horse cannot comfortably flex at the poll and soften in the jaw if the teeth aren't in order. Bit or no.
A good rider rides transition to transition, a great rider rides half-halt to half-halt!
~Robert Dover
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Hidden Farm
- Joined on 03-19-2007
- New York State
- Foal
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In my experience, the people who disagree with me the most (about bits vs bitless) are people who have never tried a cross-under type bridle.
I guess there are some horses that have the kind of mouth conformation that allows a bit to sit without pain but my point is, why put metal in their mouths if it isn't necessary? I know, I know, it's because bitless bridles are not legal for use in shows....again, I ask, who would it hurt to allow bitless users to show bitless?
Hidden Farm
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BoyleHeightsKid
- Joined on 01-03-2006
- Shanksville, PA
- Competitor
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I don't think it would hurt anything... my point is if the horse is comfortable with a bit in his mouth there's nothing wrong with that either. I agree that some horses may pose with mouth conformation (deformation) that makes having a bit in their mouth impossible.
When I was a kid I rode my horse in a bosal... I have grown up since then and will use whatever works and what my horse is happy with.
A good rider rides transition to transition, a great rider rides half-halt to half-halt!
~Robert Dover
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Hidden Farm
- Joined on 03-19-2007
- New York State
- Foal
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I can't understand the thinking....not trying for an argument, just understanding. If a horse will go perfectly well without a bit, why use one? Can you be absolutely sure that during a startle or spook, that one's hands follow perfectly for a soft use of the bit? I've seen plenty of people over the years ( in the years when everyone used a bit) where a wonderful, sane, quiet horse gets spooked by a dog (or whatever) and bolts, the rider pulls back, the horse's head flies up and mouth opens because it HURTS! By the way, bosals and hackamores can be pretty brutal on a horse if mishandled, as in the case of a spook or runaway!
Hidden Farm
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