English

Re: What type of bit do you use?

AshtonGal — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:36:15 GMT

IrishRider:

They all have their odd little ways. I guess that's why we love them.

Lol, yup!

IrishRider:

A corkscrew bit looks very similar to a slow twist.

Ahhh, ok. I know what it is now.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:21:33 GMT

They all have their odd little ways. I guess that's why we love them.

A corkscrew bit looks very similar to a slow twist.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

AshtonGal — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:48:05 GMT

Glad to hear your lesson went better! I have no idea what a corkscrew bit looks like.

IrishRider:

My trainer also pointed out that when we start working that I need to make her march up and listen to me right away. I tend to let her plod along at first, mainly because I'm trying to warm myself up and ease into it. But she said that by doing that, I am not gaining her respect right off the bat like I should be. And then at that point she feels like she doesn't need to listen and it goes down hill as the workout progresses. I thought that was an interesting point.

Ben's funny that way. Some rides I have to start right off in a work mode with her and she's great, others she gets rattled and almost needs those quiet few minutes to really get into the groove of things. She'd a bit odd that way.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:54:53 GMT

Well I am certainly glad that you guys are working things out. We had a good lesson yesterday. We rode with a corkscrew bit. She was very well behaved so I'm not sure if it was the bit or if she was just being good. My guess is it was a little of both. We did a little jumping but my trainer wanted us to do more cantering to see how she would be. She was an angel. We had a nice smooth canter in both directions and no crazy head down, run away antics. It was lovely. So I'll probably ride her in that bit a couple more times to make sure yesterday wasn't a fluke but there was a huge difference in response and respect. My trainer also pointed out that when we start working that I need to make her march up and listen to me right away. I tend to let her plod along at first, mainly because I'm trying to warm myself up and ease into it. But she said that by doing that, I am not gaining her respect right off the bat like I should be. And then at that point she feels like she doesn't need to listen and it goes down hill as the workout progresses. I thought that was an interesting point.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

AshtonGal — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:54:12 GMT

IrishRider:

My concern is she IS being disrespectful and without a little aid to correct that, at least at first, then everything else will be useless. I beieve this was one of AsthonGal's points.

Yup it was me!

The clinic I went to was with a trainer who trained horses for a living and even made it to the QH Congress ect, ect. He was mostly WP but had done some English. I knew my issue was a training one, so that's why I went. I was the lone English rider amongs many western ones! Although Bennett's little bolting issue had manifested not that long before the clinic, it came from a long time of her getting away with being heavy and not giving. I didn't know she wasn't giving as she should since I'd never trained a horse. I also mostly ride alone, have no trainer or regular lessons, and no ones around to help me out so you get into bad habits real quick. He was the one to suggest the smaller twist by saying "If I had this mare, I'd ride her 3 times in that bit, get her attention and respect, and then switch it." When we were doing an excersise in flexion, I asked him when I should give her a release as a reward for giving and he was like "Right now, I wouldn't be too quick in giving this mare a release."

Bennett was being obstinate and a lot of people were like "I can't believe you kept at it. I would have given up." We fought, and we fought hard until she gave. That shows you how far along she was in her direspect of me, and her complete disregard and avoidance of her giving to the bit.

What I thought was her giving and being good wasn't even close. By riding alone (and never training a horse before), you start to doubt yourself if you're asking the right way and when they resist you start wondering when (not if, but when) a battle of wills erupts, will you be able to handle it and come up on top as the winner. Since I didn't know, I'd always back off and so it taught her that if she'd give me half-a**ed responces and fussed a bit, she could outlast me and quickly figured out she could run through my hands quite easily. That's why she was such a spaz at the clinic. It took her a long time to get it in her head that this time, I wasn't giving up. So I can completely understand your fear of her starting to be a bit disrespectful and then having it escalate.

I do have to say that the clinic was one of the best things I could have done. It showed me how Bennett is in a fight and what would she do if I challanged her. It also taught me that I can outlast her and get after her and win. Since then, we've gotten in a few arguments, but I hold out and she gives in to ME. And her canter work (which I hadn't done much of, out of fear and frustration) is coming along very nicely.

IrishRider:

I just need to correct this quickly because the idea of this happening in the show ring freaks me out. I'll already be a ball of nerves showing for the first time and then if she does this and I can't regain control I forsee disaster.

I know how you feel. Our issue really manifested itself back in September about a month away from a horse show and at the actual show, she ran away with me twice, once in the warm up ring and another time in the ring itself (didn't help that right in front of her at the canter was a horse kicking out and bucking at everything around it). But it sure shook my confidence in her since until then she'd been really good at shows and in the ring.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:13:37 GMT

Well I called my trainer this morning and left her a message to see if she wanted me to try another bit. I'll let you know if we do and if it worked.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

Solaris — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:03:14 GMT

As I'm sure you know, horses are individuals too, so you never really know what will be best for your horse until you give things a go -- let us know how things work out!

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:15:41 GMT

I think we only have one A rated show here each year. Most of them are just nice, small shows. So I might get away with that type of bit ,if I found that it works for me, at the smaller ones. I have a lesson today so we'll see.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

CheyAut — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:44:38 GMT

The local schooling shows I like here allow the elevator, but the other h/j schooling shows here do not, so I think it is NOT a legal h/j bit (the group I like theirs shows is more of a western group but they've added english, h/j, due to demand, so I think they're more lax).

My mare Summer is, like Solo, SO MUCH BETTER in that bit. Previous owner used a boucher, and sent it with her when I bought her, but it wasn't working well for my strong fast pony. She's a good girl, jsut has TONS of speed! haha ;) (LOTS of transition work is helping that though, I have hopes to move her to a french link snaffle in the future!)

Jessi

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:16:26 GMT

I totally understand what you are saying. The problem is, when I lightly tug up when I feel her pull down, she just pulls down harder. It doesn't get her to lift her head. It's almost as if it ticks her off even more so she gets this "I'll show you" attitude and goes faster and lower. That's where I run into problems because she isn't responding to me.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

653439 — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:05:45 GMT

Like Solaris said, have your horse lift her head. My horse was doing this EXACT same thing. My trainer rode him a few times to get rhythm to the canter, and to keep him from falling on his forehand and zooming ahead, just a light tug up when he pulls down. And I have had to learn to GIVE and let go, not hang on when he goes fast. The more I relax and give some with the reins, the better he has gotten. I wouldn't change the bit. Stronger bits sometimes make a horse more nervous and get stronger as a result. You won't win in a tug of war even with a strong bit. Instead, ride with balance (make sure you are not leaning forward), an elastic body, with giving hands and a little pull up - right away - when her head goes down.We had a nice, soft collected canter the other day, it was wonderful, and in an eggubutt bit with a small flat link.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

IrishRider — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:02:37 GMT

Wow! Thanks for all of the responses. I came back to work this morning and found all of these. I really appreciate it. I will try to touch on things everyone has said. This might get long so I apologize.

My mare is an 11 year old Hanoverian. She is not off the track. My trainer has known her since she was 4 years old. Then the lady that owned her sold to another friend of the trainer. Her daughter rode her in shows a bit of XC and then decided that she wanted to do more dressage. This horse is not a fan of Dressage, prefers hunters, so the lady sold her to me and now she is back with my trainer's barn. My trainer did mention that she remembers this horse doing the exact same thing way back when. She has had quite a bit of training throughout her life. She has also been shown, etc. So she isn't a green horse. She is also a fairly calm, sweet horse. She has a bit of attitude to her. Not mean at all, but she's a mare with typical mare attitudes at times. I think she can be stubborn and strongwilled.

Impulsion had an interesting comment about new found energy. Some of you may remember my post about how much weight my horse lost. Since the previous owner's daughter bought a dressage horse, she lost interest in this mare and she was in a pasture getting fat for a few months before I bought her. Since then, she has lost a lot of weight and is looking better all the time. So this new found energy could probably be from shedding these pounds and feeling better, which makes me happy. So when I first got her she was never like this. Never. She was always very good at the canter, sometimes even too slow. And she never barreled through a jump like she has started doing. This has all come to fruition within the last 2 months. At first I thought it was a fluke and now it is every single time I get on her. I need to be able to bring her back to me in between jumps and right now that isn't happening. Even between a 5 stride line she yanks me out of the saddle after landing and then I try to slow her down but can't and by that time we have reached the jump and I have to hang on.

My trainer said that she has fashioned a device for some of the horses she has ridden in the past to help train them where there head should be. Sort of a reverse martingal, if you will. It prevents the horse from being able to put her head down towards the ground. I wonder if that wouldn't be a good thing to try.

As one of the other posters said, some people are too quick to change the bit. It was my trainer's suggestion though which is why I wanted to do some research. My concern is she IS being disrespectful and without a little aid to correct that, at least at first, then everything else will be useless. I beieve this was one of AsthonGal's points. I just need to correct this quickly because the idea of this happening in the show ring freaks me out. I'll already be a ball of nerves showing for the first time and then if she does this and I can't regain control I forsee disaster.

Re: What type of bit do you use?

Solaris — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:55:55 GMT

Hee hee, AMM, now I just HAVE to reply. I don't disagree with anything you said -- just having talked to the OP several other times, I'm pretty sure she's not one just to jump to a bit without attacking all points of training. But I totally second your points too!

Re: What type of bit do you use?

Impulsion — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:34:34 GMT

Hi Irishrider,

So you have incresed energy, changed point of balance and now running through your hands on the forehand!

A couple of things you have not mentioned , How old your mare is? How far into her training is she? ect ect.

I am going to have a guess and say that all had been going reasonable...nothing flash but you could handle her. As she has developed and become stronger she has changed the way she uses her energy and has actually bought her point of balance forward and is now losing some balance ( going heavy onto the forehand) in the canter as she has become more impulsive.

This is a natural part of a horses development in training...we want that...but if we don't keep a check on the learning process we feel that a horse becomes extremely strong and "running through our hand". You have to look at the mechanics and energies of the horse, she is really needing your help right now and if you don't intervene she will lose confidence in you as her rider.

There is no such thing as a hard mouth...only a horse that has become disrespectable. But sometimes the horse who is learning steps into no-mans land and really is neither respectable or disrepectable due to fact that she is now in unfamiliar territory and so are you.

We all wish horses were imprinted with the knowledge of how to go up through the grades with out too much fuss but we live in the real world. We also have to workout how our horse individually files information. In other words...does it take your mare 2,or 3 or maybe 4 times to realise what you are teaching her and file the material in a solid fashion? Or is she a bit of a dizzy horse, or a doughy horse or a "just don't get it horse"?

Its all relevent!

She has "come forward" and in doing so she needed you or your trainer to intervene and teach her how to re-balance in her stronger more energised pace. Yes half halts are good but believe me when your mare gets too the stage that she is at.... its both hands feeling like outside reins!

You will feel like your hands are forming a "brick wall" by not allowing her to "run through your hands" (she is trying to find balance). Your hands should only allow the rein out to a certain distance...enough for her to be "on the bit". But as your hands say to her head" stay here" she will think you are saying "slow down, downward transition"...She reads it as "pulling on my mouth and you want me to slow down" you then must apply leg to remain in regular pace...to maintain the pace! Her energy has come forward and its become strong on your hands and you must change her point of balance back...re-adjust the energy and balance, have her place more weight onto her quarters. You will feel like 200kgs go onto your hand. You are getting her to act as a spring...coiling her body in. Nose throught to tail rounds over the back.Sit up and use your centre core to maintain your balance and strengths.

Think of it like this..I am holding a dressage whip, one hand on either end. Now I am going to push the 2 ends together...what do I get? The dressage whip goes in an upward curve ( the round horse) but I feel even pressure at the front of the whip and even pressure at the back (Connection). If I have too much pressure at front the front of the whip bends in more at the front (Too much resisting hand which causes neck to shorten...horse to slow down....Wrong) If I have too much pressure at the back of the whip, the whip makes my front hand feel like it wants to push forward( too much leg and so horse is running through hand- again wrong).

So you see you maybe in unfamiliar territory.

Now you see why people get a bigger and stronger bit. You must train your horse, you must help her...you are her trainer...she is asking for help. If it is out of your league employ a trainer to take her through this difficult moment.

You will get a couple of strides that seem nice...soften at that time..SOFTEN (NO RESISTING) BUT don't give the reins away because believe me it will only be 1-3 strides that are nice...then back on forehand..Repeat exercise over 5 to 7 minutes at a time ..then rest. Why rest hahahaha you both would had run out of energy! She will change, she will re-balance and she will strengthen within her "frame". She will become very soft and so will you. Make it "uncomfortable " within her frame when she is wrong and "comfortable" when she is correct(her reward) You must be patient and help her. She will think you are the god almighty of horses.

Do this in all her paces. Don't let her go on the forehand.

No need for bigger bit just better training methods.

Good luck

Trace

Re: What type of bit do you use?

AMM — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:20:15 GMT

Hahaha Solaris - heres another opportunity to reply

I think you have just hit the nail on the head with your sentence ".....Using them in an appropriate manner and EXPERIENCED in the application"

Not knowing the experience of the OP, we all know that tools used in the wrong hands can have a detrimental effect, its like draw reins, side reins, chambons etc etc all good tools when used in the RIGHT hands!

Coming from a showjumping background I know what you mean about a horse being locked onto the jump but I have seen some shocking results from people who ride with their hands only and using gags, for arguments sake, because they cannot satisfactorily control the horse.

The Boucher is not an elevator bit at all - it works on poll pressure and encourages the horse to take the bit downwards and reach for the contact as opposed to encouraging the horse to lift its head, which is what the OP is having a problem with, the horse lugging down on the bit and hands and generally being ignorant of the rider.

and I agree with you that there are many many tools available these days to help achieve the desired result, I just dont beleive that changing the bit to something harsher should be the first port of call!

Have a good one