English

Re: Mouth Open

48northfarm — Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:22:18 GMT

I agree with BHK. Well put.

Re: Mouth Open

BoyleHeightsKid — Mon, 04 Jun 2012 04:34:08 GMT

I don't see anyone here condemning the Dr. Cook bridle. It's just another tool in the tool box, but I do see you condemning the use of a bit. Any well rounded horse person will use whatever works for that particular horse. When I see a horse going around with its head in the air and its mouth open, I always look to the rider first. Usually this person does not have an independant seat, uses their hands for balance, uses no leg whatsoever and rides the horses head. If not the rider, then it's always some other physical problem, not caused by a bit. Hundreds of thousands, hell even millions of horses go around every day perfectly comfortable and happy with a piece of metal in their mouth.

Any well educated/experienced horse person will know horses that go around with heads in the air and mouths open, more likely than not, are not being ridden correctly, not because they have a bit in their mouth. A properly fitted bit does not cause pain... like I said before, it's the hands behind them that do the damage. I see this alot in gaming because the horses are being ridden totally with the hands and not with the seat. Even a horse in a bitless bridle being ridden with all hand is going to go around with its head in the air because... They are not being ridden from behind!

Re: Mouth Open

Hidden Farm — Sun, 03 Jun 2012 04:00:20 GMT

Well, I did say that my last post was my last but I have to answer this one. I say the "proof is in the pudding" and if you haven't tried a Dr. Cook's bridle, then don't condemn it. I have a dozen horses here, all using Dr. Cook's bridles. There are many sizes, age ranges and breeds involved. Three of them are TBs off the track. It's been my experience over 38 years that when horses react to extra pressure from a bit (as in the case of a spook or runaway, or more recently in my observance of local people running barrels and pole bending) that the horse will open his mouth and point his nose up to the sky in an effort to get away from the pressure. With our horses, first of all, there is normally little need to put extra pressure on the reins. Sometimes we get a small rider on a larger horse and the horse needs a bit of extra pull on the rein because the little rider's light weight isn't felt by the school horse. There is no mouth open (obviously) and no skyward nose, not much of a reaction at all except for stopping like he should. I would think that if there were excess pressure causing discomfort on the nose, under the chin or on the poll, we would be able to see some sort of uncomfortable reaction from the horse? People call me a "bleeding heart" when it comes to horses and my concern for making sure that the horses are not in pain....believe me, if the horses were showing any signs of discomfort at all with these bridles, we would not use them.

Re: Mouth Open

Frizzle — Sat, 02 Jun 2012 19:09:37 GMT

There was actually a study done that found some bitless bridles put a lot of pressure on the horse's face and are not necessarily "more gentle" than bits. Link here (you have to join the site to see the articles) -- http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19877&src=topic

From the article:

Early studies on one type of bitless bridle, on the other hand, showed that the pressure on the nose, under the chin, and on the poll is quite high, Clayton added. Although this research is still in its early stages, Clayton said she isn't convinced the bitless bridle is more humane.

"Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."

Even so, the bitless bridle might be a "useful alternative" for horses that are unable to wear a bit, such as those with a lacerated tongue, she said.

Re: Mouth Open

48northfarm — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:47:43 GMT

PicassoReflex:
I have gone back to the beginning with him and getting contact on the reins slowly and releasing as soon as he gives and praising him and he is improving.

Excellent. The chewing and the foam are wonderful signs that he is realizing that contact CAN be okay. Apparently your hands are much softer than those used on him in the past. Good job. It'll do nothing but get better. The day that he begins to follow your hand will be very special, and you're on the right track towards it.

Re: Mouth Open

PicassoReflex — Thu, 31 May 2012 17:35:11 GMT

Thanks for everyones input.

And yes Hidden Farm we can't go bitless in dressage, and the owners had tried that with a hackamore going western, but he didn't respond well to it.

We have found a german silver french link eggbutt bit, that he seems to be ejoying. Instead of opening his mouth now constently he opens it at the beginning when warming up but starts chewing the bit and gets all drooley over it lol.

I have gone back to the beginning with him and getting contact on the reins slowly and releasing as soon as he gives and praising him and he is improving. I also don't over do it with him, he goes round with my riding with my seat into my hands and barely any contact, but we can't have slack reins. so we are working on finding the sweet spot were he is happy and i have consistend contact with him. He does not have any teeth problems, as we had the vet come out and check.

it seems to us that he was abused when he was broke, and had his mouth and tongue ripped open. this horse is sooo soft and subtle after warming up, that it is a shame that he opens his mouth and plays with his tongue out. he is so in tune with his rider and waits for cues.

Re: Mouth Open

Hidden Farm — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:55:16 GMT

It doesn't work as harshly as you imagine....you should try one on your horse!

I think you'll all be happy that I'm signing off....I didn't mean to start up a riot...I would just love for people to be aware that there are different ways to do things other than the old, established, traditional ways...just because it's been done for years, doesn't always mean it's the best way!

Re: Mouth Open

BoyleHeightsKid — Thu, 31 May 2012 08:45:40 GMT

Can you be sure that when riding in a bitless bridle and the horse spooks and you jerk on the reins that it's not going to squeeze too hard on the sensitive nerves at the poll?? Hey... if you can't use a bit why not squeeze the heck out of your horses head?

That's all I'm going to say about that.

Re: Mouth Open

Hidden Farm — Thu, 31 May 2012 05:46:25 GMT

I can't understand the thinking....not trying for an argument, just understanding. If a horse will go perfectly well without a bit, why use one? Can you be absolutely sure that during a startle or spook, that one's hands follow perfectly for a soft use of the bit? I've seen plenty of people over the years ( in the years when everyone used a bit) where a wonderful, sane, quiet horse gets spooked by a dog (or whatever) and bolts, the rider pulls back, the horse's head flies up and mouth opens because it HURTS! By the way, bosals and hackamores can be pretty brutal on a horse if mishandled, as in the case of a spook or runaway!

Re: Mouth Open

BoyleHeightsKid — Thu, 31 May 2012 05:17:11 GMT

I don't think it would hurt anything... my point is if the horse is comfortable with a bit in his mouth there's nothing wrong with that either. I agree that some horses may pose with mouth conformation (deformation) that makes having a bit in their mouth impossible.

When I was a kid I rode my horse in a bosal... I have grown up since then and will use whatever works and what my horse is happy with.

Re: Mouth Open

Hidden Farm — Thu, 31 May 2012 04:29:19 GMT

In my experience, the people who disagree with me the most (about bits vs bitless) are people who have never tried a cross-under type bridle.

I guess there are some horses that have the kind of mouth conformation that allows a bit to sit without pain but my point is, why put metal in their mouths if it isn't necessary? I know, I know, it's because bitless bridles are not legal for use in shows....again, I ask, who would it hurt to allow bitless users to show bitless?

Re: Mouth Open

BoyleHeightsKid — Thu, 31 May 2012 04:10:27 GMT

All you have to do is watch Steffen and Ravel(or any horse Steffen rides!) or Andeas and Matinee (RIP beautiful girl).

Boy seeks the bit and if very happy doing so. He's in an HS Dynamic RS Loose Ring http://www.doversaddlery.com/herm-sprenger-dynamic-rs-loose-ring-snaffle-bit/p/X1-010512/?ids=mhkbfx55dwwn4czta1hnifz3 His caveson isn't really as snug as it should be (I can fit all 4 fingers in there) and he doesn't need a flash. If the bit was so uncomfortable that wouldn't be the case.

If the horse has dental issues it's not going to make a bit of difference whether he has a bit in his mouth or not. A horse cannot comfortably flex at the poll and soften in the jaw if the teeth aren't in order. Bit or no.

Re: Mouth Open

48northfarm — Wed, 30 May 2012 12:03:27 GMT

You seem to have made up your mind, so I'm sure nothing will change it, but there are horses that are extremely happy in bits, even double bridles. Watch them glide around the arena, backs swinging, ears flopping, and you can't tell me that they are not comfortable. If a bit is used well, it has no more effect on the horse than the headstall. Anything we put on a horse's head--bridle, halter, rope, anything--is gong to make the horse feel differently than they would in the wild. Making a bridle bitless does not change that, it's still a bridle. Hence, not "natural".

That's the last of my two cents worth.

Re: Mouth Open

Hidden Farm — Wed, 30 May 2012 11:41:33 GMT

I understand your point about helping because you have to use bits in shows (for now). If it were only Dr. Cook's opinion, I might tend to agree with you...maybe....but there are other vets (not in the retail business) that concur with Dr. Cook's findings. We are trying to convince the "powers that be" (FH, USPC, USEF, AQHA etc) to amend the rules and allow us bitless people to show without bits...it wouldn't take anything away from anyone to allow us that concession, would it? Horses cannot speak so none of us humans will ever know for sure if they are happier with or without a bit...I prefer to air on the side of caution and not use them! My horses seem very happy!

Re: Mouth Open

48northfarm — Wed, 30 May 2012 11:38:34 GMT

Hidden Farm:
I own 8 lesson horses of all ages and breeds and all go beautifully in bitless bridles.

Boy, if I had lesson horses I'd sure put them in bitless bridles, too. A beginner rider--and often an intermediate rider--does not have educated hands, hence hard hands. Those are the riders that bitless bridles are made for. You can get collection from behind in a bitless bridle, but it is still not legal for competition. Rather than train the horse to go in a bitless, train the rider to have soft hands. Soft hands are the basis of the techniques BHK and I spoke of.