Foal Watch

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Shadowsfire — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:12:25 GMT

Bay roan. Have any updated pictures of her? I am wondering how Belgian and Arab would turnout. Interesting cross.

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

lakotasmine — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:16:45 GMT

i think she will be the same color as her mom

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

JanJhorses — Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:26:35 GMT

Can't get any more bay then that!

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

light_horse — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:28:02 GMT

I can't help with the color thing but wanted to say what a beautiful foal you have.

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Katie — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:37:50 GMT

Thanks, I guess that explains why with the limitted studs the majority of Belgians went chestnut.

The reason I was wondering about the A+ was I was on horsecolor.com and read this:

Quote:

A+, which is dominant over all the other alleles at the A locus. It is called "wild type" bay, and gives a much lighter horse with shading that makes them look much lighter on the underbelly, and the black on the legs is much less extensive (perhaps only up to the ankles). Some books specify the color of the Przewalski's Horse as an example of this gene, but pictures of them show that they are actually dun. Perhaps they are A+ and dun, both. It is possible that this gene was once the most common color in all horses, but has been almost completely bred out of the modern horse population.
...
Currently, the various Agouti genes are believed to affect only the eumelanin in the horse's coat, and therefore would have no visible effect on a chestnut horse, which has no black pigment to be affected. There are some who believe that the various A alleles may affect the shade of a chestnut, but at this point there is no evidence one way or another. Anecdotal evidence does suggest that black horses seem more likely to produce very dark chestnuts (liver chestnuts) when they do have chestnut foals, and vice versa, so there may be something to the idea. However, the one study that was done by the researchers who isolated the a allele showed no statistically significant difference in the shades of chestnuts whether they were AA, Aa or aa. Hopefully more research will be done in this area soon.

But what do I know?

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Katie — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:19:38 GMT

Thanks!

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Stacey 315 — Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:16:20 GMT

I'm guessin bay

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Anonymous — Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:02:16 GMT

Can't be dun, grey, or roan b/c neither of her parents are soooo BAY is my final answer, lol. She certainly is a cutie pie!!

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

QHAllAround — Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:29:19 GMT

Wrong.

Black is always dominate.
When you have a chestnut and a bay you have basically two possible combinations.

The chestnut is two chestnut genes and may hide agouti (pretty pointless here since the bay has agouti)
The bay is either a chestnutXblack genes with agouti or blackXblack with agouti.

Since black is always dominate if the bay is BlackXblack then the foal WILL be black based. Either black or bay (depending on weither or not agouti gets passed on).

If the bay is chestnutXblack then the foal could be chestnut, black, or bay (agouti).

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

890227 — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 23:52:54 GMT

"Flaxen" is the modifier that gives the white mane and tail. Flaxen only shows up in Chesnut horses. It's not known exactly where it comes from or how to breed for it. Flaxen can range from a light brown to a bright white. Madonna has the chestnut/flaxen which is closer to white and both her parents had the flaxen mane/tail also. It can lay dormant for several generations and just show up. You never know when you might get it. Altho the best way is to breed two horses that are flaxen. Some breeds are known more for it... the halflinger is one, the other is the belgian.

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Katie — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:46 GMT

Thanks Jcarot and CheyAut!

Thanks for explaining the bay and chestnut agouti and extension genes! Makes much more sense. Maybe the father carried the A+ gene...

Pictures of some Belgians today (from OK State)

It is true that the commonly seen Belgian is chestnut today. BUT as I said before this is an AMISH Belgian and therefore not affected by the trends of the horseworld. The fact that we are allowed to breed to the stud is an honor. The line was established in the 1800's. That is before the fad hit to have chestnuts with flaxen manes and tails pulling the wagon.

The quote used was a quote from the Belgian Review and was an advertisement trying to sell the Belgian as an easy to match horse for teams.

The truth of the matter is that the only horses available to breed from 1913 to 1937 were those already in the country, 1773 belgians were registered at that time (1910). WWII stopped the importation of new stallions (but by 1937 there 3196 horses registered). So the horses that were available to the public all got mixed together and yes, they are now a one color breed IN AMERICA overseas where there was a larger population to choose from and breed the Belgian is not all chestnut.

Quote:

In America, its color is usually chestnut or roan with white or blonde mane, tail and points.

Information supplied by the Belgian Draft Horse Corporation of America

To get the white or blonde mane/tail, what modifier must be present?

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

CheyAut — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:43:57 GMT

Here's what I've found on belgian websites:

"By the 20's and 30's, when the breed really hit its stride in this country the breed had pretty well become the "sorrels and roans." Now there are a few roans and even the odd bay now and then, but for all practical purposes, it is a chestnut-sorrel breed today.
"
"the fact that they are pretty much a one-color breed"

Jessi

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

CheyAut — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:39:23 GMT

Actually, the VAST majority of belgians are sorrel (chestnut). I've NEVER seen a dun or roan, don't think I've even heard of a bay belgian.

The base color for ALL horses is either red (chestnut) or black. Black is dominant to red. So if a horse had one red and one black gene, it will be a black based horse. A red horse MUST have two red genes.

Now, bay, the agouti gene, restricts black to the points, which creates the bay. If a black horse has even one agouti gene, the horse is bay. Since agouti ONLY works on the black a red horse can have one or two agouti genes, but it will still be red.

Dun is a gene all too itself, and a parent MUST be dun for a foal to be dun. Same with true roan. Both dun and roan are dominant.

Hope that made sense

Jessi

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

890227 — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:27:33 GMT

She could definitley be a roan if her sire was roan. Dun is normally not a belgian color, but it is possible. Altho duns are usually born a buckskin color, not bay. And since dun is a color modifier, the bay on the foal would be MUCH lighter.

From the Belgian Organization: When the breed hits its stride in the 20's and 30's the colors had well become the "sorrels and roans." Now there are few roans and even an odd bay, but for all practical purposes, it is a chestnut-sorrel breed today. This has long been the preferred color by Americans...the Cadillac of colors being a red sorrel team with white mane and tail, with a white stripe in the face and four white socks. This is the ultimate in draft horse style.

Chestnut is recessive red (ee) and bay is black based. Bay can be Ee (hetero) or EE (homo). A hetero bay can still throw a red foal, a homo only throws black based foals. In this case, the bay mare is more than likely homo since the Belgian is red (ee) and does not carry a black gene. The foal is probably bay genetically (black based) but she could roan out. I would have to say she is not dun.

Re: What color do you think she'll end up???

Horsewoman_horse — Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:11:18 GMT

Thanks, Katie. I hope you post pictures of her as she gets older so we can see any color changes.