The March issue of H&R is out, with its Special Report on solid Paint-bred horses and the show rules that affect them (see "A Breed Apart," page 66.) Here's the accompanying Gallop Poll question:

Do you think solid Paint-breds should be given equal breed participation rights with colored, regular-registry Paints? Why or why not?

The editors will check back here to read your responses, or you can send e-mail to: alana.harrison@primedia.com.

--Juli Thorson
H&R lifestyle editor

All in all, I say no, they should not be allowed all of the same rights as the colored Paints. Doing this will just wreck the whole breed, and the only "Paint horses" will end up being quarter horses with no white on them. Sure, they should be registered, but as breeding stock. Not "solid paint breds" in my opinion, though it may sound nicer. We need to stop encouraging people to breed solid-colored paints. By giving them the name breeding stock, people realize that they are not the true paints, but that they are still registered and can be used to produce true paints. Don't get me wrong though, I actually own a solid buckskin dun filly. I'm glad that she's registered, but no, I wouldn't want to go win some fancy world show class on her. I believe the breeding stock paints should have their own classes at shows, and their own division of the APHA to be registered under. Why bother being around paints, if they're really quarter horses? I like paints partly for their color, but eventually if we let this go on, the breed is going to die out. We may as well all switch to quarter horses once the white patterns leave! Sure, Paints can be bred with thoroughbreds, but the jockey club seems to have better rules and regulations to keep things in line over there.

Honestly I have always seen Paints as a color breed as I believe does most of the equine world. However APHA changed that with the one paint parent rule they implemented a couple years. In my opinion this makes the APHA a blood registry not a color registry. It then makes it extremely unfair to the SPB's who may possibly even have 2 paint parents and double the bloodline requirements but not equal rights. The APHA show circuit right now is hugely biased toward minimal white animals, people advertise their APHA horses for sale as minimal white as the best feature! So what is the difference in a full registered paint with a 2" spot under his tail or belly and that regular people can't tell is a paint or a SPB? Loud color in the showpen is looked down upon most places. I don't own a SPB but if the American Paint Horse is a bloodline breed and SPB are part of that bloodline and already allowed to reproduce as Paints I don't see why they can't allow them full rights. Perhaps the SPB's could have a special brand like WB's do that would identify them clearly as Paints, which is the only reason they are not in the regular registry!

Tonya

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The APHA show circuit right now is hugely biased toward minimal white animals, people advertise their APHA horses for sale as minimal white as the best feature!... Loud color in the showpen is looked down upon most places. I don't own a SPB but if the American Paint Horse is a bloodline breed and SPB are part of that bloodline and already allowed to reproduce as Paints I don't see why they can't allow them full rights.

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The judges really aren't biased against loud horses. Ask some of them, and they'll tell you that a good horse is a good horse. It should be noted, however, that loud markings can cause optical illusions when judging both conformation and movement. One of my geldings has very odd markings on both hocks and one knee, and I often have to take a second look to make sure there's no swelling or irregularity. My mare has uneven hind socks, and can sometimes appear "off" when trotting away in a halter or showmanship class. I know that when I was purchasing my own project horses when I was fresh out of youth, I certainly did look for minimal white horses--not because of fads in the show ring or marketability, but because I was sick and tired of washing all the white on my last tobiano! If you've ever bred paints, you know that you can breed the two loudest horses you can find and still get a minimal. Or I can breed for a minimal and get a loud foal. It's like Vegas--you know your odds, but it's always a gamble.

As paint horse breeders, exhibitors, and enthusiasts, we're still struggling with deciding on our breed identity. When Rebecca Lockhart started APHA, she based it on **both** bloodlines and color requirements. It's still that way today. By giving SPB full inclusion into the regular registry, we're totally changing the breed standard. I'm not at all sure that's a good idea. As the current APHA president alluded to in the latest Horse & Rider, we've all watched the ApHC pretty closely thru all their color issues. What was once one of the top breeds in the country (in numbers-registration, membership, etc.) has drastically dropped in the national rankings while APHA has climbed. I think that's a trend worth noting and examining more closely.

Solids should definitely be allowed to show with the colored horses. The APHA is a breed organization and when you breed a Paint horse to a Paint horse you get a Paint baby. It makes no sense to disallow over 30 percent of your breed because they are lacking a two inch spot of white. The AQHA has realized this, updated their rules to repeal the excessive white rule and experienced substancial growth as people rushed to double register their horses or move to raise AQHA horses only. I am a small breeder and even though I love the looks of a pretty paint, I cannot financally afford the risk of getting a solid baby. I will breed only AQHA horses until the APHA accepts all their horses in the show pen. I am not the only one who feels this way and suggest the APHA take a strong objective look at both it's numbers and the AQHA numbers over the last couple of years. Some of the very people who are the loudest in their opinion that RR and SPB should never show together were the amoung the first to double register their horses, do you think they are really thinking about what is best for the APHA when they did this?

For robison02: You make wonderful points to discuss but what I don't understand is why letting the SPB show with the colored horses is changing the breed standard when allowing them registry and breeding rights isn't?

I have only been in involved with breed type shows for a few years (background being open H/J shows) so I wasn't aware what happened to the ApHC. However due to the new elimination of the AQHA excessive white rule, and allowing double dilutes would make me think that APHA should start trying to think out the box here and quick. AQHA is absorbing market share.... They can't do that with ApHC.
APHA is a good alternative to AQHA and shutting out 30% of the market share doesn't make sense to me. Something more needs to be done to increase the value of SPB's, if its not full show rights then we need to start thinking!!!

NO, those breeders who are going to double registered horses aren't necessarily looking out for APHA's best interest. They're trying to hedge their bets on color, thus reducing their financial risk. But that's nothing new. DR horses have been around for about 10 years or so now, since AQHA started raising their white lines and APHA lowered theirs.

Personally, I think that once you allow solids to show with RR horses then you completely eliminate the need to breed for color and we'll end up with an entirely solid breed. Qharter horses! Where would the incentive be to consider color at all when breeding?

I'm very happy, however, to see so many people up-to-date on the whole solid paint bred issue. I get very frustrated by hearing people that bred their mare to a paint stud and then throw a major hissy fit when they get a solid foal. These people that didn't do any research into what could happen and what their options are make me want to pull my hair out! Like any endeavor involving horses, education is key.

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Something more needs to be done to increase the value of SPB's, if its not full show rights then we need to start thinking!!!

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It's positive thinking like that that will get us somewhere. APHA has been trying, although I'm not sure they're taking the right approach. I'm always preaching that solids are eligible for practically all the futurities, and by having colored papers they can show in both color breed and open classes. They are also eligible for all the major event organizations: NRHA, NSBA, NCHA, NBHA, etc. Unlike paint shows (which are really just a small portion of the paint population), those organizations award money. Now tell me why the heck wouldn't someone snatch up a well-bred solid weanling at killer market prices and hit those shows??? I'm very stumped by that. Heck, I went out and bought a neat little solid gelding with the intention of showing him in solid classes and NSBA classes at paint shows. Chances are pretty good I'll see a return on my investment with him! LOL! Of course, we have to get over this bucking phase first...

Another option I would like to see is allowing people to lease solids and show them in solid classes at paint shows. Currently, we don't allow leasing of horses for anything but breeding purposes. Solids are a great way to introduce people to the paint horse industry. Let people get their feet wet at the paint shows, meet some of the people, increase the sizes of the local clubs, and get show records on our solids. Several states have started offering amateur and youth classes for solids, but unless those get enough entries I don't see them staying on the show bill. Let some of those 4-Hers with leased horses try it out--that's a win-win.

Deb, you know I love ya to death, but Im going to disagree with your here! LOL to an extent at least.

APHA was founded on, in the beginning, color. They were the outlet for the cropouts that had "shamed" their owners, they also registered a LARGE number of horses who were "grade" but had the color and the conformation that the founders felt a Paint Horse should exhibit(hardship registration, which continued up until the 80's)

The APHA morphed into an actual BREED, IMO, when bloodline requirements were made, and that happened a LONG time ago or they would have let ANYTHING with paint marking be registered, despite if it had the ideal conformation or not(and it probably would have morphed with Pinto and become one large COLOR organization.)

Paint horses now must come from paint, QH or TB parents..and just recently, as all are aware, one of those parents must be a an APHA registered horse..no more cropouts allowed.(at least from 2 only AQHA or 2 only TB parents)

I feel that SPB's, while they are excellent horses, lack one of the major features OF a paint horse..the color..it does not make them less of a horse or less of an athlete, but they are not the breed ideal.

I am not directly related to apps, but a friend of mine was, she was so angry when solids were given the same "rights" as the spotted apps..she complained how you saw less and less spotted apps and more solids..why? because people did not care if they spotted foals or not..they were all treated the same..

Consider also, many patterns in the paint breed are more "in" right now, due to the fact of the optical illusion the white(or lack of) creates. Paint HOrse Journal did an article on this, mainly for halter horses, but how different markings on a horse can create the optical illusion of a smaller, prettier head or more muscle..we know white can also mask problems or make them more known in the riders as well(thats why it's taboo to wear white chaps or gloves unless your hands or legs are extremly disaplines and quiet.

It's not that people don't love a loudly marked horse and it's not that judges don't like loudly marked horses..it's the illusion caused by the white.

Because of all this, people are seeking the minimal whites for the show ring..at least in the "judged" classes(halter, WP, HUS,ect)

I am deathly afraid that if APHA allows solids the same rights in the show ring as a colored horse, we will go the way of the apps..no color..and then what are our horses?

I have owned EXTREMLY loud paints, minimal paints and some Breeding stocks that I thought SO highly of, yet I still feel the same way.

Now, in the performance, scored classes or timed events(roping, barrels, reining, western riding, WCH, cutting) I could see SPB's and Colored's being shown together..why? These are scored classes and not judged so much on the gait and "look" of the horse, but how he performs or how fast he is...the classes that worry me are the ones mentioned above and unfortunantly, in this instant, it's all or nothing..you can't designate that those classes are ONLY regular registry and the others will be combined SPB and RR..

A SPB would not deter me in the slightest, if it had the bloodlines and ability..APHA has ways of promoting these horses..each year they are adding more BS classes to the world show(reining this year!!!!) and at least in Texas, they offer a good many BS classes.

PAC, Gelding Plus, and the Cash Incentives offered for many prestigous events in "open" organizations give SBP and RR plenty of oppurtunity to compete and prove themselves.

I will also say, when I breed, yes, because we breed paints, we do consider color production, but color is not the ONLY factor, nor is it the TOP factor..Bloodlines, conformation, athletic Ability, Temperment and Show Record come FIRST AND FOREMOST.

In my experince, a Breeding stock who has all the above will sell faster and better then the loudest CRAPPY bred and conformed horse out there.

You breed paints, heck, any colored breed of horse, the risks are understood that you MAY get a SPB..Im of the mindset, as least APHA allows SPB an area to be registered and bred and shown..alot of other breeds, that have bloodline AND color requirements DENY registry to any horse, even if they meet the bloodline requirements, if the color is not met.

Just my humble opinion on this.
Sarah

I am not sure it is quite as easy as you think to use these horses in the way that you are describing. I raise reining horses and by the time they are ready to show I have 2 years of training and anywhere from 15 to 20 thousand invested in them. How many people do you think are going to spend that kind of money to "get their feet wet". I currently have a wonderfully bred very talented solid reining horse for sale and over half the people who call about him say they are not interested the moment they find out he is a solid paint, won't even come look at him, because they want the option of showing in the breed shows as well as the NRHA. The APHA has unfairly restricted my ability to sell my product and reduced his value by not allowing him the same opportunities to show.

Hey Sarah,

I have gone to the Paint world and watched a class where there was 2 moderately marked horses and several minimal marked horses, the average person would not be able to tell the difference between Conner and most of the minimally marked horses but he can't compete and they can. I personally love a loud paint horse and think that more people would breed for them if they did not have to worry about the risk of a solid. I know that it is keeping me from breeding to Like A Diamond and I drool every time I see his picture. The APHA calls itself a breed not a color registry, the Pinto organization is a color registry and they have more opportunities then the APHA. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Deb

Deb, I agree that the APHA's color requirements on what's a PAINT and whats a Breeding Stock can be difficult to understand..I know why they set the definitions, but it does eliminate some horses that proably do carry the "gene" for a paint pattern. It can be frustrating, I understand.

I to like Like A Diamond, he, like Smokin Chic Olena who we are breeding ginger to this year don't have a super high color production rate, but I really feel that if the quality if there, the SPB's will sell and be marketable.

I've met some reiners who could care less if the horse is RR, as they want to compete NRHA only, they dont want the hassle of the breed shows and other reiners who want the option of the breed shows.

Deb, I understand your frustration in trying to sell Connor, When I sold aBS gelding I owned years back, I made sure to tell folks of the other oppurtunities that APHA had for BS's..he was a barrel racer and this was before APHA incorporated more SPB classes at the World Show.

Did you hear they are adding Breeding Stock Reining to the World This year? I found that very exciting.

Alot of breed organizations deny registry to horses that lack the desired color, yet they also have bloodline requirments that go with that.

I think SPB's will always be an issue within the APHA, I've seen more growth in promotion and oppurtunities for the SPB's in the last 2 years though and I find that encouraging.

Again Deb, I sympathize with your plight, I would never turn down a SPB if it was everything I wanted. Most of the APHA shows around here seriously lack entries anyway, the only show I care about is the World!

Sarah

Sarah,

I think Smokin Chic Olena is a very cool horse and would definitely be on my short list of paint sires if I was going to try again. I am sure that you will get a wonderful and talented baby, and I will keep my fingers crossed that you get color.

I know that other breed organizations may have color rules but I doubt that they are discounting appoximately a third of their breed when they enforce these.

I was also very excited to see that Reining for solids had been added to the APHA World show and if I still own Conner he will definitely be in Fort Worth this summer.

Deb

Thanks Deb, Im crossing my finger we get colored filly, colored just like Flash would tickle me pink! I admit, his production record had me really think, as far as color production, it's about a 50/50 shot on QH mares. We will see I guess.

Im not sure about percentages of horses in the other registries denied..my point was more of "it could be worse" for SPB's then what it is now for them.

That would be awesome for Connor to be in the first SPB Reining at the World Show. I've waited for it to be added for abit now and I predicted last year it would be added this year, Im glad it was and I bet it's a good size class!

I will come down and watch for sure!

Sarah

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this BB, but I think i'm going to like it. I have mostly paints and do primarily reining.

With regard to the SPBs, I believe they should have equal showing rights. There are a numer of really good reasons for it:
1) 33% of registered paints are SPBs;
2) The required white for RR is only 2 inches, which may be as hidden as on a sheath, so what's the difference? 2 inches does not a colored horse make. ;
3) The APHA claims to be a breed registry, not a color registry. IMHO, they are attemtping to be both, but, in reality, are only discouraging new owners who buy without awareness of the restrictions. Pinto is available if you're only about the color;
4) The AQHA has finally, after decades, recognized that white does not make an inferior horse. As a result, they have removed their restrictions on white for registration and showing and simply mark the horse as having an undesirable trait. I'm guessing this would have an effect in a halter class. Why would APHA make the same mistake as AQHA in reverse?
5) What sort of sucessful business allows 1/3 of it's product to be worth so much less? For that matter, what sort of a business allows a competing organization (AQHA) to be so much more user friendly (color/no color- no problem) that it de-values all the product even further?
6) Isn't the point of breeding horses to get the best possible horse, not the second best with color? These rules affect breeding decisions negatively;
7) APHA shows are already struggling with keeping numbers up. Why not add to your show base, rather than taking it away?
8) A breed is a breed and that's based on bloodlines, not color;
9) Some solid horses are capable of producing more colored horses than their colored counterparts, yet they can't prove that they are worthy of breeding because their own organziation doesn't make them worth the training by limiting their ability to show against their own brothers and sisters;
10)People buy paints thinking that they are buying a registered paint horse and are shocked and then angry when they find that their SPB cannot show in regular classes. That doesn't seem like such a great way to grow an organization.

I could go on and on, but I'll leave it at that for now. I've gone to the APHA workshop and I've been an officer of a regional club and I still have not heard an argument for keeping the different registries that makes sense to me.