Cisco has a bad habit of pulling himself around on the Forehand and not using his back or HQ at all. I was hoping to start showing him in open shows, and I was wondering if you all had any exercises to get him to round his back and get off the forehand? He will give to pressure on the bit and drop his head, but it's not just a "headset" problem, it's a overall impulsion problem. He is nice and slow and smooth. If I could get him to use his back and power off the hind end, it'd be wonderful! He will yield to commands and he's a pretty experienced packer. If you know of any exercises to help, I'd greatly appreciate it! I was thinking about ground poles and cavalettis, but can't really think of anything else. 

   Work without your stirrups, and I mean posting trot!  This will give you the leg strength to ask him to use his hind end. Also, don't hang on his head, it just gives him something to lean against.  Keep light contact and don't worry about "head set", he'll figure it out when he starts using himself properly.

Will have to do more without stirrup work. I don't ride him as much as I'd like - but I do ride through the college 3 times a week, in addition to riding my other horses. My leg isn't terrible, but not where it should be. I don't hang on his mouth, all it takes is a lift of your reins and he'll drop his head. He never leans on the bit, and I keep it pretty loose. When I have the leg strength - how do I ask him to use his hind end? By asking him to lift his ribcage and move forward?

First off, how is your horse built?  Are his withers higher than, even with, or lower than his hips?  Does he have a lot of muscle development in his hind end, or is he bulkier in his shoulder?  And are his hocks fairly low to the ground or are they set high?  A horse's conformation has a lot to do with his athletic ability.

If your horse is going learn how to use his body properly, he needs to know how to move his body parts independently.  He needs to learn how to pivot on his rear, pivot on his forehand, and sidepass.  This helps him figure out where all his feet are and will help you fine-tune him later.  Once he understands how to move his front and back independently, I like to progress to two-tracking.  This is fairly difficult and I begin at a walk, then progress up to a jog and finally the lope.  To be able to two-track and not stumble all over himself, he must be reaching up under himself.  You will be increasing his range of motion and strengthening him all over.

While you're working on the progression of training to get you up to two-tracking, you can do some circle work.  I like to ask my horse to jog on the straight away, then when he begins to speed up or start to feel uncollected, I put him on a small circle using my outside leg and my outside rein (holding his head and neck pretty much straight).  He won't be able to circle at the jog unless he gets those shoulders up and reaches underneath himself.  If he falls into the bridle and lugs on it, don't be afraid to bump him back off.  He has to learn not to lean or your hands for support.  Don't be suprised if it takes several sessions for him to start "getting it".  You'll be suprised at how much lighter he'll feel when you ask him to circle back.  As this progresses, I like to jog and lope squares using the same theory.  My goal is to have them so light in my hands and reaching so deep beneath themselves that they are practically pivoting on the corners.

 

Cisco is built long. He has a long neck, a long back, and long pasterns. I'll post a picture to help visualize. :) His hocks are set higher than his knees - he's downhill even though his withers are the same height as his HQ. 

 

 

He knows how to sidepass, turn on the forehand and the hindquarters, very well. He used to be a low-level reiner, and he also yields laterally. He was a college school horse, and he's very soft to aids. He's pretty slow, so he doesn't use himself but he's still a pretty smooth mover. I've never had him lean on my hands for support, he's very soft now. :) He'd be perfect, if it weren't for the fact he was heavy on the forehand and hollowed.

 I've read about using circles, I will have to start asking him to do so. Can you elaborate on two-tracking? I can guess the meaning, but would like to make sure I've got it right, lol.
 

I wasn't quite sure if I understood what you meant by your reply to another reader's suggestion to strengthen your own legs, but if you aren't working this horse as often as you "should", you can't possibly ask him to move through consistently.  That is part of the reason why some horses go on to be world class, and most of ours don't.  Consistent conditioning!  Also, if he has been a schoolie for any length of time, and if he is as nice as he sounds, he carried a lot of beginners, so, I will bet he figured out that all that was required of him was obedience.  Work him regularly in the same kind of conditioning program you would set up for a 40+ year old reasonably fit person.  Then, he can go on to the "marathon running" class of not yet older folks!  Also, lots of belly lifts, tiger claws, etc.  When you stop by to give him a treat, give him a back lift and a stretch.  Once they (we) start to get a little older, it takes more regular work to keep fitness.  I was young and in college not THAT long ago, but my how things change, after 17 it seems every year ages us by 2 muscle fitness-wise, seems to be similar with them.  An 8 year old horse that used to work 3 times per week and still be ready to push on just doesn't have the same abilities at even 10!  Good luck, and remember to think first why this wonderful horse won't do what you are asking him to!

Sorry if I confused you, lol - It actually probably wasn't relevant. I don't ride him that often, I am thinking towards the spring. The only reason I mentioned riding during the week is for the purpose of my leg, it didn't have to do alot with him. I actually have not ridden him in quite a bit - just looking forward! :) When I do start riding him, I'll definitely work on conditioning. I was just noticing him not carrying himself like he should on the ground when I was taking pictures for my conformation class. He definitely has carried alot of beginners, and really does just think on obedience. I work with my rocky mare right now (I hope to show her as well) and getting her into shape, and when the weather warms up, I'll start getting him into shape and condition. Almost every time I visit him, I ask him to do belly lifts - what are tiger claws? Yeah, he is twelve - so I hate to ask too much of him, I just would love to go have some fun at some local open shows, and keep his back from deteriorating. Definitely not expecting world class show level. 

 Thanks very much for the comments! :D 

You can "google" tiger claws, but basically they are sort of raking your nails down the muscles next to the tail and rump, gets the horse to tuck under.  Just be safe when doing it, some really don't like it.  How did you get your hands on a good schoolie who is only 12????  I don't let mine go until retirement age (like 18 give or take).  I won't even look at a horse for the school string or my beg/int riders that are less than 10!!!  I live in Northern VT so I know what that whole weather out of condition thing is like.  We had great snowy footing, then got a boat load of rain the 23rd. :-(

 Glad you're trying to keep his back from deteriorating, it's sooooo much harder to try and bring it back.

 Happy Holidays.

K, I will google it :) Thanks! I will definitely be careful, when I ask him to lift his belly he will sometimes lift a leg, not meanly but like it may be uncomfortable. I try to be as gentle as possible when doing that. :) I got him when he was 9, my instructor, who was the coach at college (I was not there yet, but taking lessons with her) had to sell him and I jumped. She would lease him to the school every year, and use him in the program. She trained him very well and he's a great boy! A little spooky on the trails sometimes, but he's so careful with new riders otherwise. I had him back in the program for a while, but he's back at home since I can't lease horses to the school I go to, lol! The woman who owned him was amazing with horses, she put a great foundation and training on him. :)  Man, that would stink! We've been pretty fortunate to get good weather, it's drying up, but looks like we may be getting some rain soon!

 

Thanks, I'd love to keep him from getting bad, better to fix it while the problem is smaller! His health is alot more important than any class. :)

Happy Holidays to you too! 

 

Given how he's built, it's going to be more difficult for him to round up. That's not to say that he can't--it's just not going to be easy for him. He's got a head start since he already knows how to sidepass and turn on his rear and front. Two-tracking is just the next step up. Think of it as moving forward and sideways at the same time. Without actually demonstrating it, I'm not sure how to accurately describe it (I'm not good with words!). Think of it this way: you'll have your horse lined up straight against the long side of the arena and standing in a corner. You'll ask him to walk forward but also to the side. Your goal is to keep his body pretty straight from head-to-tail (so you'll still be parallel to the fence) and end up in the opposite corner from where you started. Does that make sense? For a good visual, Nancy Cahill demonstrates it very clearly in her lead changing video (I think it's called Precision in Western Riding--excellent video).

 Very true. :) Ah - I know what you mean about two tracking! We do that, or something similar in class. :) Thanks! :) I'll definitely start trying that when I get him back in shape! 

Hi, I agree with robison- two tracking and a lot of other lateral work in general both on the ground and under saddle are the best things for helping a horse to develop and utilize the hind end. Also as was mentioned due to his conformation it may take longer to achieve but will happen as long as you teach and work him in without asking for more than he is physically ready for when moving from one step to the next. I suggest working on the ground first until has developed his muscles -balance & can perfect the lateral movements etc. before you do to much under saddle - it's only fair to the horse and it will make things a lot easier for both you when you are up there=;->

Hi.  First off, I want to say, I have read some of the other posts for you and by and large, most of it is pretty good for what you need.  But I wanted to reply after I saw your pic of Cisco.  To me he looks like he is weak in the hind quarters.  Now, it is probably because he pulls himself along with his front end.  So, I wanted to offer this:  When I am "legging up" or conditioning horses whether they are youngsters I am brining along or horses that have been out of training for a while, I try to strengthen the hindquarters with easy, natural movement.  and my favorite thing is hill climbing.  I am fortunate to live in the mountains of So. Cal. and to be able to ride out my gate and into the wilderness.  Just like any exercise, you start slow and easy and build up.  At first, I go into the arena for a little formal schooling.  Walk, trot, canter, yeilding to the leg, etc. etc.  I try to work about 30 mins after the warmup.  Then it's out the gate for a conditioning ride about 3 times each week.  The other 2 or 3 days, I stay in the arena and work on a specific skill.  To start with, I walk up a low hill (about 2% grade) that is about 1/4 mile to the top.  It's on our dirt road and is easy going.  At the top, I let the horse rest a min. or so.  then I walk down, letting the horse pick his own way, but maintaining a working walk.  When that gets easy, I do it twice.  When that gets easy, I move on to the next hill.  It's about 6% grade and almost a half a mile to the top.  I follow the same routine.  After that, I move on to the next one, which is a challenging climb and descent of at least 10% grade.  After 2 months or so, a horse is getting pretty fit.  But the key, and the most important part, is the walking.  Your horse should be encouraged to walk up and down with a purpose.  Don't fool with his head, loose reins are better than contact.  And don't let him cheat and trot or worse canter.  When a horse gets fit and even the tough hill is easy, I add exercises to the hill climbing.  I start back on the easy hill and trot up it, insisting that the horse maintain an ideal frame, well driven up behind by my lower leg, and with a very soft contact on the bridle.  He should power himself up the hill.  Again, stop at the top for a min. to let him get air and turn and walk down the hill.  But, now on the descent, take up your light contact, sit solidly on your horse with the weight slightly to the rear, and drive his hind legs under him, using his natural tendency to rock back on his hips for balance while descending.  Follow the same progression as with the earlier exercises.  Provided you have a sound healthy horse that is fed well, properly warmed up and cooled down with each ride, and follow a logical progression in your training, you will within 6 months have a horse with a much fitter and powerful rear end.  And he will respond more enthusiastically to your legs and the request to step under himself better.  Oh, before I forget, you can make the walking up the hill easier by standing slightly in your stirrups with you weight more over his shoulders.  And you can make the trotting up hill slightly esier by posting the trot, or rising slighty into a modified two point (jumping position) often reffered to as the "light seat".  And if your legs are weak, you can utilize a dressage whip to emphasise your leg request.  But, work with it in a safe environment before you go out and ride with it.  Most horses do not object to a whip used with respect and care, but there are some who object strongly.  Always ride safely, so when in doubt about something like whip or crop, try it out with someone else supervising to stay safe.  Also, the whip rules:A light touch always and ever.  Suggest, then ask, then request.  Three is the majic number; the first tap gets his attention, the second makes the lesson clear, and the third drives the lesson home.  Anything more is beating the horse and he won't know why. 

Yay! At least I'm not the only one with an impulsion problem! lol
My QH is built similar to yours. Long. lol It took about 3 months for him to just tuck his head and become rounded. For that, I worked with my trainer and we did tons of flexing and little circles of flexing... then we trotted and flexed, cantered and flexed, then more tiny circles, and more flexing... xD tons of flexing on that part. After he got the memo that flexing and not throwing his head up when I asked him to drop was a good thing, then I worked on impulsion.

For me, all I really needed to do was use a crop and control his speed. lol Once I got him in a frame, I would use my legs and push forward with my legs as well as my seat. (note that I mostly did this in a sitting trot. lol) For a while, he'd just speed up, not get round or anything. But, after a while, he got it that he needed to get more impulsion. Now I can't stop the boy! lol 

When I was looking at his picture, I did notice his hind end was rather on the weaker side. This is probably the main reason as to why Cisco isn't giving impulsion. If you can, work on going up and down inclines (not too steep) at a walk, trot and if possible, canter. Building up muscles is key to almost everything. 

I didn't read all the posts or anything, so I don't exactly know what disciplines you do, but if you're into hunter/jumper, try doing gymnastics over low jumps for a while. I know that's the first thing I did with my Paint, gymnastics. Boy did he build up the muscle for impulsion. lol